A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Tyllis

Senior Member

08-19-2013

How about when his ult is active when he goes into a bush he enters stealth then retains it for a set duration then refreshes as he enters another. He won't be able to disappear into thin air in the middle of a lane but be can do something like ult before tribush bot enter stealth then gank and may or may not be in stealth all the way to his jump point but it helps.


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Zealote

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Oh the lameness! I really, really hope this no stealth thing doesn't go live.

This game is becoming more bland after every update. Sadness. =(


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-19-2013

RAWR I'M GONNA EAT YOUR FIRST BORN SCARIZARD!!!

Just kidding, I just wanted to add in an opinion. I never liked full assassin Rengar so as a Bruiser Rengar player I figured stealth removal meant I pretty much would have to drop the champ, because my play pattern in team fights was: fight in the center->do some damage/draw focus->ult when low->run or engage on the lower health squishies. That pattern doesn't work without stealth, although Xelnath saying he was more easily able to survive with this ult gives me some hope.

That also gets me thinking. What is Rengar's fall back pattern? It seems like he's becoming a dedicated assassin, but if that's true, what do you do when you're behind as Rengar? Bonetooth is useless to you in that situation, you may not have the base stats to survive long enough to Q train squishies to death. So what does a behind Rengar even do? Can he still be useful if he goes a little tankier?


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Ghostryker

Junior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyllis View Post
How about when his ult is active when he goes into a bush he enters stealth then retains it for a set duration then refreshes as he enters another. He won't be able to disappear into thin air in the middle of a lane but be can do something like ult before tribush bot enter stealth then gank and may or may not be in stealth all the way to his jump point but it helps.
This is actually a great idea.
I never liked how Rengar lost his brush stalking style when he ULt'ed.
This would actually bring it all together....perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatchOfDeath View Post
saw an idea of giving rengar a short burst of stealth after a kill while his ults up, i like that idea.
There might be something in this idea as well.


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BlueRoseleader

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
See this? ^
That sort of post is why we can't have nice things.

The people mad about this aren't mad because because removing stealth doesn't make sense, but because people just like having stealth. So much so that they think stealth = Rengar's core mechanics.

COMPLETE BULL****.

What makes him Rengar is the mechanics that make you want to lurk and stalk your targets.
His brush-leap mechanic, his ult letting him see enemies in the fog of war, his bola... The stuff that lets him HUNT.



Maybe it's because those who disagree provide lame rebuttals and really were not constructive.

I have yet to see a single pro-stealth argument that doesn't summarized into one of the following:
  • Stealth is core to Rengar (with no supporting evidence beyond OPINION)
  • I like stealth, so you should keep it. (OPINION)
  • Rengar will be useless without stealth. (with NO EXPLANATION)

All completely stealth-biased nonsense that does not address the problems of the current Thrill of the Hunt at all.

Scar doesn't address them seriously because they should not be taken seriously.

Scarizard's already addressed the serious discussion of possibly making Rengar's stealth like Evelynn's stealth.
The rest is the forum's vocal minority having a tantrum.

I mentioned earlier, without stealth rengar is far to squishy to make use of ganking early, also his stealth is meant to punish bad positioning, it's not my fault that you people dont want to try to ward against it and stuff


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Ghostryker

Junior Member

08-19-2013

I am not anti stealth in general but I don't see stealth as mandatory for Rengar.
Rengar is a predator..not the predator from the movie. lol

I am a fan of Rengar. I am a fan of stealth. I never felt like Rengars stealth should come from pressing a button....but from smart positioning.
Rengar is supposed to be using the brush to sneak up more so than most other champs.
His "stealth" comes from those ambush tactics.
What makes him a hunter is his ability to HUNT...as in find and get onto an enemy to take them down.
Being able to slow targets from a greater distance fits into that.
Rengar lessening enemies damage output also makes him more synergistic with other champs in a team fight while still effectively keeping its place as increasing his personal ability to survive being attacked.

Rengars stealth was initially too good at letting him escape fight So they made the start up really slow. Now it is only good at initiating but that leads to one of two outcomes-
1:He surprises enemies and pretty much insta-gibs someone without them having a chance to respond.
2: A ward shows him coming and he lacks the survivability to deal with that.

Its too binary and lacks the back and forth play that makes the game interesting for both sides.

His ULT being about vision,speed and up more often fits right into Rengars gameplay model without taking away his brush stalking style. It makes wards a less effective counter tactic because knowing he is coming doesn't save you from him. They just need to make sure they get his base stats into the right place so he is sturdy enough to take the heat.


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Hellbringth4th

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Hey, I think the fact that there's so many red thumbs on your posts should be a bit of an indicator that many people are against removing the stealth...


FYI: Me included.


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Kneon

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Hey Scarizard,

I don't know if you're still reading this but it is a huge disappointment to someone who enjoys playing Rengar. I think we've really fixed the issues with Rengar regarding AP Rengar derp etc. In my opinion, and some close friends who play who I've talked with about it, Rengar is part of rare breed of well designed assassins/ad casters. They are high risk (putting yourself in melee range of the enemy team), high reward (snowbally and dangerous if fed and played well, pretty worthless if not), and have a way of increasing survivability for a very short time that allows them to not be completely unviable (Rengar W, Pantheon block passive).

Rengar is now extremely rarely picked (5% pick rate in ranked, 47% win rate in ranked) so why on earth would we feel the need to remove his stealth and put him in the trash can? This isn't toxic, there is PLENTY of counter play (oracle, wards, peel, NOT feeding him early) that render him useless and therefore present the high-risk high-reward scenario that he should be in. He also has to choose between trying to assassinate a carry and then dying with no escape, or going in without it and using it to disengage. If you remove the "thrill" from Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar will be a Heimer tier champion.

Please do not do these proposed nerfs to Rengar.


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Alpha Gray

Junior Member

08-19-2013

Ultimate - Same as you describe, but Rengar gains [a fast but not instant] stealth while in brush and retains it for 1.5 seconds upon leaving.

That way Rengar is darting in and out of bushes as he navigates through the Jungle and the river to get in position for a teamfight, or during a complex duel. Combined with the way his movespeed is increasing as he gains stacks of Bonetooth, Rengar can literally dart from bush to bush like the actual tiger-man he is.

Also makes him much more interesting when literally playing cat and mouse with someone in the jungle. This is a hunting cat that darts from Brush to brush to maintain the element of surprise and has a solid second and a half to position to jump on a fool in a long lane (or mid) in order to mess with them.


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hoxE

Member

08-19-2013

Its unfortunate that people are reacting so negatively. I'd like to reiterate how grateful some of the community is for all the attention you've given my favorite champ as well as this discussion (That goes to Classick/Scar/Wav3/even ole xelnath!)

I had a couple ideas related to the stealth vs no stealth situation on his ult. First off what about a short stealth duration followed by a movement speed buff? It's in the same realm as kha'zix and his sprint stealth, but it's different enough with the leap and the alternating status changes. Another idea I had relates to WHY we would use his ult. For me, I use the ult to avoid wards coming in for a gank. Obviously there are a hundred different scenarios but I just see that as one of the most pivotal NEEDS for a stealth on it. What about some sort of ward clouding aspect? For example, I'm blue side Rengar coming through tri brush and I cast my ultimate to "cloud" a certain area that I know usually has wards, and then follow that in for a gank or just use it to back the lane off. Now I'm not thinking graves level vision deny here either, because it wouldn't deny champion vision at all.

Just ideas, chew on it and see what sounds good.