A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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BrandNameZombie

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn View Post
All I read here was a load of nonsense.

If you're playing properly against Rengar you've done two things 1) warded the brush 2) warded the map such that being close to the river is actually advantageous because now you have river vision and other brush vision (if blue side) if purple side you are, like all top laners slightly screwed, basically deal with it is what riot says about that

In regards to your comment on ad reduction...yes mages aa are technically spells. No no mage will ever attempt to duel rengar anyways early because that's just stupid. But guess what rengsr jumps from a brush? Aa spellcast walk away. He can't do anything about that because you're too far away in any case from his brush jump. You think ad reduction is useful for dueling creep waves? Are you nuts? Who duels top lane in a creep wave unless you have the cannon minion early? Lets even say you're right...

What about late game? What good is ad reduction then? Its garbage on tryn and trundle bc its a garbage concept! To be effective it has to reduce a lot of ad but doing by riots logic is toxic bc then the adc cant fight bc they do no damage when built I.e. into botrk. 80 ad reduction aoe? That doesn't sound adc breaking? Ok fine 50? 50 is useless. 65? Ehhh seseems too much my counterplay is to build more dmg or wait...waiting isn't fun
last hit effectively away from the creep wave(as a melee) as well as away from the bushes and tell me rengar will never all in you without fear of minion damage

i also had no idea the defenses he had on his W helped him that much lategame


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Zaresin

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Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Apologies if i'm coming off as 'pissy' - i don't intend to be. The negative feedback is a very important part of an iterative cycle, and in this case one that i anticipated. I'm going to continue testing it, but this was all intended as a 'Heads up, we're testing this and it's a possible outcome so i'd rather you know now' than a surprise change. If anything, my re-iteration that no changes are final isn't trying to get snippy with any of you, but just trying to keep you guys realistic. This is not the end of the world. This is likely not even the end of these changes. Overreacting about changes that may or may not occur is something that keeps out good discussion, and a lot of people so far have been able to disagree with me without yelling or in one case telling me to kill myself (stay classy).

W's changes are intended to build in a strength and weakness in one go. By shifting his power budget to make him super effective vs a certain set of champions, we can also make him weaker vs some others so when you see 'They have an AD + Bruisers' you can feel better about your Rengar selection, or that when the enemy picks Rengar you can say 'X type champion will do really well here'. The W changes aren't 100% necessary for the rework to ship which is why i'm trying it out, but does give it a targeted use-case and shuts down some opposing laners in Top as well as making him have a better go at jungle, so it's worth scouting out the potential.

To me, 'stalking' can mean just as much about strength/speed/stalking in a brush or fog of war rather than stealth. A lot of these changes are targeted around making Rengar more scary not only in brush, but in skirmishes/disorganized fights in places near it and Fog of War (Dragon, Baron, Buffs) and lowering his power outside of those zones. Rengar -can- have stealth if he needs it, but making him King of the Jungle (not necessarily in role, but in literal map locations) may not necessitate it.

Again, i don't mean to spurn anyone - i'm just against any type of reaction that limits discussion. As for your thoughts on 'this kills lane Rengar' - why do you feel that way? I see that the changes can come off as more Jungle Rengar specifically because it's something i want to improve, but nothing in testing has shown that Top Rengar is any weaker at all outside of level 2 instagib cases. His W makes him take next to no minion damage and gives him great trading potential vs bruisers/assassins alike and while his E is no longer targeted, hitting it from a longer range is a great enabler - not to mention it's just as easy to hit once you've used brush to leap directly on to your target, dealing more damage and allowing you to wail on your opponent with Q's buffed AS%. That + buffs to health/health regen in the main post make me most excited to play him toplane, as a top-laner main specifically. I'd like more insight into why you feel Top Rengar suffers here?
Well if you did (and not saying you should) at least then we wouldn't have to deal with anymore of your ideas on why rengar should be without stealth.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
Well if you did (and not saying you should) at least the we wouldn't have to deal with anymore of your ideas on why rengar should be without stealth.

That was uncalled for.


For shame.


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Zaresin

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Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdragoon88 View Post
That was uncalled for.


For shame.
Just pointing out the upside. Gotta be an optimist


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BrandNameZombie

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdragoon88 View Post
That was uncalled for.


For shame.
i agree

that was in very poor taste

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WMQjjK-cso


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerforhire View Post
i last hit effectively away from the creep wave(as a melee) as well as away from the bushes and tell me rengar will never all in you without fear of minion damage

i also had no idea the defenses he had on his W helped him that much lategame


I'm sorry what? What's your point here?

If you're a melee top I wouldn't be much affraid of Rengar. Garen, Panth, Jax and others are perfectly ok with rengar jumping them in fact they want you to.

Are you referring to shen malph zac or singed? Because again al these champs rush armor. Except singed who literally as druiddroid has shown can feed all day and still bring about victory. Btw ever try to lvl 1 1v1 singed as rengar? You won't win his poison will eat you alive. How bout lvl 2? Poison and toss..it only gets worse from there.

Rengar in lane isn't so scary when you force him to use fury to heal..and considering his worst jn the game hp/5 he pretty much always has to after taking any kinda lane damage.


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TheCooterAddict

Junior Member

08-18-2013

if this happens im just never gonna play rengar, the whole purpose of rengar is the stealth. this is ridiculous.


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THUNDERMINE

Member

08-18-2013

LISTEN TO MY WORDS OF WISDOM! (aka requests on Rengar's kit)...

1: Keep his bola a skillshot, but don't let it be stopped by minions. Instead let it do slight damage
to all the minions it hits over its course of flight,and let bola give him vision of where it travels into the dark, because I like this idea.

2: RETURN STEALTH: Make him pulse in and out of stealth once he is within 1000 range of enemy. 1.5 second stealth/ 1.5 second non stealth. When in the stealth pulse his movement speed increases 20%, and when he comes out of stealth it is back to base stat/slight boost.(sexy right?) The first enemy he jumps on is hit with a flat 10% slow with an added "area effect" to everything around him for a 5% slow for 3 seconds, because he scared the **** out of everyone. Stealth pulsating stops with first enemy he attacks, but is not cancelled if he is hit by an enemy. This will make them feel stalked/scared as well, and help him out of a bad teamfight situation. You could also just make his ult pulse the whole time with those added benefits, because I like this idea.

3: Put a cheesy 1% lifesteal on the bonetooth necklace at least, and add 2 armor per level, because I like this idea.

Keep most of those cool speed boosts, retain most of his instagib potential and he's set.


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Gloryhammer

Junior Member

08-18-2013

Haven't been able to read all of this thread mostly because its gigantic, but pertaining to Rengar's ult ,it seems like the two major issues are:

Playerbase wants to retain stealth because it is a core aspect of Rengar's identity.
Riot wants to remove stealth because its frustrating to have a coutnerplay-less mechanic.

What if his stealth was, instead of an eve/twitch stealth, a new kind? One that gave invis to wards but not champions. It would allow Rengar to retain that feel of "I know where you are and I will run at you really fast and kill you" while giving his prey a few seconds to react/to cower. This way, counterplay could exist as if you knew there would be a Rengar jungle, you wouldn't push your lane to hell, because you would know that despite warding Rengar could still come and jump you.

It gives all the strengths of the reworked ult mentioned by Scarizard, but could allow for more straightforward ganking paths while still being unnoticed. Rengar as he is on live is toxic, and with the completely stealthless rework he loses ganking power/ fun.


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DdC ThanatoZ

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Junior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
First allow to introduce myself, my IGN is DdC Thanatoz,I have more than 2 years of experience in this game and at the moment I'm a diamond player Rengar main who unlike other mains of the same champion, I have played him since his release in PBE(way before live). I have seen him go from a mega overpowered champion that could literally do every single role in the game:

-He was a better assassin than in live(he had 170% extra damage on empowered Q-Savagery, way more than the 150% on release and the 100% atm).
-He could be a great full tank with good damage output or an excellent off tank(both with the Q damage but also his W used to give 60 armor and mr and heal 15% of max hp)
-He could be a hilarious ap nuker with W having a great base damage of 270 and 1.0 ap ratio.

To the champion that he is right now. Before people says that my opinion is biased I'm going to say that it may be part true but also I know the whole spectre of this situation, I have gone against countless Rengar players during my time playing league so I know how it feels to gib and be gibbed.

This comment will be a 2 parter, the first part will be my feedback about these changes that you guys are planning on doing/testing and the second part will be more of a rant, and I hope you guys at least take my feedback into account because you guys are known for ignoring community feedback( looking at Karma remake).

First Part:

-I will begin tearing apart your statement that Rengar or at least hit ult has 0 counterplay, from 7/23/2013 to 8/15/2013 Rengar has an average of 8.68% pick rate and 46.92% win rate(taken from lolking and calculator :P). If your statement was true, his pick rate would be much higher since he should be a free win and who doesn't want a free win at least in ranked? also his win rate should be more than 50% since not all the games taken into account are normal blind picks where there could be 2 Rengars making 1 of them lose but it also counts ranked queues and ARAMS(taking these into account since these are the most common queues and I don't know if lolking counts Dominion too, most likely it does but for the sake of the argument in leaving it out) and since the team that has Rengar will always win(in the hypothetical situation that he has no counterplay like you mention in your statement) his win rate should be more than 50% but it is lower than that, what does that mean then? do we have cheats that let people win against this overpowered champion? I don't think so. Also worth to notice that his ban rate isn't 100% so that means that people know how to deal with him.

-The Q train, you say you are nerfing his instant burst to make him more of a bruiser/fighter with damage output in a 3-6 seconds interval, let me tell you that those 3 to 6 seconds are an eternity for a teamfight and Rengar doesn't have that long specially since he doesn't have sticking potential unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight Rengar in a bush or to run trough one(if they are alone) or if the enemy team doesn't focus you at all and just lets you slap the carries around summoners rift at your leisure, this will create the conflict of do I still build an insane amount of damage glass cannon items? or do I focus more on survivability/sticking potential?, this will become a vicious cycle and at the end the alternative will be just going Tankgar and splitpush all day since the attack speed steroid is still there and I will also be able to spam Q's to take down towers faster also i will have a massive movement speed boost to run away from enemy team when they try to catch me splitting.

-W Battle Roar from resistances to ad reduction like trynd's W but that actually affects minions, is true that his roar should give that fear factor to his enemies but there are 2 ways to see this, the first one already mentioned but the second one, Rengar is a prideful hunter and with a reason, he has survived countless battles against formidable preys and he has the trophies to prove it, his roar is a manifestation of this, his confidence/cockiness empowers his whole body and makes him relentless and more resistant to damage for when he has to get in those engagements with his dangerous prey. With this changes you are cornering him to a jungle role.

-E Bola shot now a skillshot, sorry but you dropped the ball on this one, this is the last nail in the coffin for top Rengar, before i get into gameplay let me tell you something, Rengar is an expert hunter, he has toned his body, weapons and abilities over the years, this means that whoever he chooses to be the target is not gonna escape the bola shot, that is the point of the bola right now in live, now to gameplay, if you make bola hit minions then it is just gonna be so easy to dodge in lane by hiding behind minions, even if it becomes like ezreal's Q people can just sidestep and dodge it, if you make it that it doesn't hit minions or monsters then he won't gain ferocity from it in the jungle hurting his jungle clearing/ganking potential, the bola strike right now gives Rengar a fallback option in those hard lanes where he can't max the Q because he is gonna get out-traded(Jax, Irelia, Panttheon, just to name a few) or gives him a way to bully safely if he is winning the lane and doesn't want to take risks.

-R no stealth, this change is worse than the bola, you are not only changing his gameplay but also his theme, he is so similar to the predator from the franchise that taking his stealth away conflicts with his overall theme,in gameplay terms, you are giving him a massive speed boost but no stealth, what's the point of that? He won't be able to get to the important targets now that everyone can see him and even if he gets to them we get to the point I made with the Q and W, he won't have the damage to take them down or won't survive long enough specially with the battle roar now not giving mr and with aoe compositions being so popular that is a major problem and all this brings us back to the easy exit, splitpush all day with tankgar and let me remind you that this is what made you nerf Rengar at the end of 2012, pros were just going full tank and splitpushing all day and that imo is far more toxic than we are dealing with right now. If you actually read the posts that some people did in this thread you would know that several have given the same option and is the perfect one to deal with his no warning/no counterplay ult problem(according to you), give him the predator's stealth effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrw7D-YXlo0

At 0:36, 0:41 to 0:43, 2:01 and 2:18 to 2:35 you can see the effect of seeing a predator during his stealth.

An easy way to compare this is with the dark templar from the starcraft franchise or any stealth unit, there is wobbly effect when enemy stealth units walk trough your screen adn you don't have detection, this is a win win situation, it gives us Rengar players a closer feeling to the predator, keeping the surprise factor on the preys not paying attention but also rewarding those who actually watch the map, this lets us bypass wards unless the enemy has a sc2 pro player apm and is checking every single gap in the map where they have vision each second, if you want to throw in maybe a 5% extra mov speed it would be awesome but the numbers right now are fine since this solution isn't that gamechanging.

-Bonetooth Necklace now a jungle item with reduced stats and more utility, sorry but that's not the point of the necklace, with the changes on W, E and even Q cornering Rengar to a jungle role you are pretty much making it so that every Rengar jungle will have to buy this item, your argument is that know he can bypass wards by "brute force" with his massive speed from ult like Rammus or Hecarim, then why would I pick Rengar when I already have those 2 champions who would do a better role at that since their speed boosts are not linked to their ultimates and they have far more reliable crowd control than Rengar, again, the necklace is a way of Rengar to show off, how does he show off? with his trophies but how did he get his trophies? trough battles, what happens after a warrior survives a battle? he not only has more experience for the next one but he is also stronger and that's where the stats from the encklace come from, he has survived a lot of skirmishes and now he is stronger(armor penetration, base dmg/dmg per level and cdr), he is faster(25 mov speed), he is more agile(150 extra range on leap) and he is sneakier(ult lasts longer), the new necklace doesn't make rengar stronger in any way, he is just utility and if i wanted an utility jungler there are other 50 that can make a better job. At the moment the necklace is in a good place, it isn't mandatory for every Rengar player to buy it but if stacked it gives you a nice extra kick, you also wanted suggestions for a max stacked necklace passive well how about this:

10 AD + 2 per level

*3 stacks: 10 flat armor penetration and 5% cooldown reduction.
*6 stacks: +25 movement speed
*9 stacks: 150 extra leap range
*12 stacks: Trill of the hunt duration increased by 3 seconds(no more next attack gives 2 ferocity after ult)
And for the 15 stack give him back the PBE effect on maxed 18 stacked necklace(talking about PBE release when item had 18 stacks)
*15 stacks: Bonetooth Necklace becomes activable, when activated instantly fills Rengar's ferocity bar to full.(Cooldown same as yoummuus ghostblade 45 seconds)

With this change you would be giving Rengar more variety for teamfights, he not only could go in and blow up the carry or just use a bola strike to snare a target but now with this he could pull a clutch empowered roar for a lifesaving healing, he could pull a bola chain to lock down a target, he could use an empowered Q after locking down someone with his empowered E, the amount of gameplay this option opens is high, since this is a pretty strong effect it is at max stacks of 15(pretty hard to achieve), if you want to use those ideas for necklace then why not make another item since your necklace is useless for top lane Rengar, this new item would be unique so people won't buy both making them annoyingly strong but would also give Rengar a fallback option in case he falls behind, he could go tank or off tank with the utility of the new item since he at the moment is pretty weak when he falls behind and is really hard to come back up.

TL, DR: Give Rengar's ult the wobbly effect of the predator and change the necklace a bit(explained above).

That is the end of the part 1, I seriously hope you rioters read it, if I forgot to mention something just ask me and please bring your arguments since I'm sure I can shut them down, don't just go ahead and butcher champions left and right because you refuse to listen to the fanbase's feedback.

Part 2:

This art is going to be a rant, i suggest you don't read it since is mostly me raging :P

I respectfully ask you Scarizard that you stop doing this kind of reworks until you at least resolve the Karma situation, I know several Old Karma players that don't like the new one since now she is just another spam Q mid laner and there is no more "karmatic" feeling like the old one, let's be honest, you and your team ignored completely the fanbase on that rework and the result is now a champion that is picked less and has less win rate than the old one, you would say that she is more viable but she is just generic now and you plan on doing the same sh*t to Rengar, of course there is people that likes the new karma but when I asked them why they told me that it is because you guys just keep buffing her to make her more appealing when the problem is her concept, the fanbase has asked you to give her 2 mantra charges but just keep ignoring them and makign her spells stronger and stronger(and she is still not played), here is a comment on surrenderat20.net that pretty much resumes how me and several other people in this community feel about you and your reworks:



If after all this you still decide to go trough with these changes I just ask you one thing and one thing only, instead of Rengar name him Elmer Fudd, the Wannabe Hunter since you are changing Rengar's gameplay AND theme completely.
Sorry for kind of spamming but I really want a red to read this also, if you really did some research you would know that lions don't have the stamina for great chases(you said you are more based on a man lion than the predator, well your argument just fell apart, lions can't chase for prolonged amounts of time or at really high speed)