A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Ripperz00

Junior Member

08-18-2013

^lol troll


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripperz00 View Post
^lol troll
Trolling implies you're purposely trying to piss people off. He's just an idiot.


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Muggshott

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havik223 View Post
I like all of these changes. Rengar is going to become more powerful and have a more diverse kit as a result of these changes. I don't see why people are so upset with losing the stealth; it made it way too easy to just murder ADCs. That was pretty much Rengar in a nutshell: Kill ADC, die to the rest of the team.

How is that fun for anyone except the Rengar player? Any survivability post-jump relied on the enemy team's stupidity.

I consider Rengar my favorite champion, and I welcome these changes.
Actually, I would characterize these changes as far less diverse.

The Q-Train falls in line with your typical "spam the damage" gameplay that only extends what he did across a longer period of time. It alters the gameplay by prioritizing the Q for use of ferocity in order to get more of his primary resource where his current rendition gives you more of an opt in between damage, durability, and ranged harass on the common case. The bias it adds to the choice heavily outweighs the increased amount of times you you make that decision in a fight. Ferocity scaling with his level across E in addition to W removes the incentive to use that odd "ranged harass" build a top Rengar could opt into which hurts diversity on its own.

The Roar, I would argue, is now more focused with the intent to abuse in a brawl. Shifting the Armor/MR buff to an AD debuff makes him a stalker of AD bruisers and ADCs. Overall, he becomes less able to deal with magic damage based champions as though they're somehow not the prey you're looking for despite the higher damage output. The fights are likely to become a more binary strength indicator against mages and a strong duel against enemy AD scaling. I would characterize that as decreasing diversity by focusing his target selection.

Even without regarding the loss of stealth and the riot acknowledged comparison of the speed boost to existing "brute force" speed gank styles, the rework definitely detracts from the diversity of builds and decisions currently on paper for the knifecat by focusing the target to extended AD based fights and taking away much of the incentive to max E in lane.


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Toru Itai

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havik223 View Post
I like all of these changes. Rengar is going to become more powerful and have a more diverse kit as a result of these changes. I don't see why people are so upset with losing the stealth; it made it way too easy to just murder ADCs. That was pretty much Rengar in a nutshell: Kill ADC, die to the rest of the team.

How is that fun for anyone except the Rengar player? Any survivability post-jump relied on the enemy team's stupidity.

I consider Rengar my favorite champion, and I welcome these changes.
so you want rengar to die before killing the adc intead of after? gg


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sumeet11

Member

08-18-2013

skillshot bola is ****ing pathetic, time for dota 2


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sumeet11

Member

08-18-2013

All rengar players unite and petition to have this "rework" abolished. If riot does want this rework to go at least change rengars ult completely


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Barnem

Senior Member

08-18-2013

@Scarizard

I think one of the radically important things you're missing (or have not at least touched on in your analysis) is that by taking away the stealth, there is no way a Rengar can safely regenerate his fury. You are basically encouraging Rengars to either 1. Run Away or 2. Run around in circle telegraphing to your opponent "HEY I'M JUMPING ON YOU DON'T MIND ME I'M JUST GOING FAST." I get that opponents should be able to react, but the ultimate doesn't really give you any options that an ult should.

Maybe Rengar could be invisible in and running out of bushes? It limits the places where his invis is abused, but it gives players a place to ward, and it limits his gank paths. This way people know where Rengar could come from and can adapt accordingly without fearing SUDDENLY RENGAR from almost anywhere.

If you are honestly spreading his damage out over time so that you don't explode when Knifekat jumps, then the abuse case is -gone-. Nocturne's jump has a large telegraph but his ult is even more map-warping than others.

I'm honestly OK with removing the triple Q. But taking away stealth means that a Rengar loses ALL of the fun mind-dickery with his ult.


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Vulcanicmist

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnem View Post
@Scarizard

I think one of the radically important things you're missing (or have not at least touched on in your analysis) is that by taking away the stealth, there is no way a Rengar can safely regenerate his fury. You are basically encouraging Rengars to either 1. Run Away or 2. Run around in circle telegraphing to your opponent "HEY I'M JUMPING ON YOU DON'T MIND ME I'M JUST GOING FAST." I get that opponents should be able to react, but the ultimate doesn't really give you any options that an ult should.

Maybe Rengar could be invisible in and running out of bushes? It limits the places where his invis is abused, but it gives players a place to ward, and it limits his gank paths. This way people know where Rengar could come from and can adapt accordingly without fearing SUDDENLY RENGAR from almost anywhere.

If you are honestly spreading his damage out over time so that you don't explode when Knifekat jumps, then the abuse case is -gone-. Nocturne's jump has a large telegraph but his ult is even more map-warping than others.

I'm honestly OK with removing the triple Q. But taking away stealth means that a Rengar loses ALL of the fun mind-dickery with his ult.
Yeah this is what came to my mind as well, basically his ult will be in many ways useless, his ferocity will be gone the second you activate his ult, what do we get, MS and we keep the leap with no stealth? Pretty lame to me.


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Arkara73

Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Trynda View Post
I have a neat idea for keeping rengar feeling like a pridestalker with stealth WITHOUT allowing him to pop in and instagib people without counterplay.


When Rengar ults, he can see the draw lines for the fog of war on the enemy team. You can see where the fog of war is and so you can stay inside of it. You gain an immense amount of movement speed while inside the fog, and can leap from it as if you were inside brush. This functionality doesn't disappear on the first leap-- it lasts for the duration of the ultimate.

If you need to incorporate stealth, you can have rengar stealthed for when he is more than 900 units away from any enemy champion, and indicate that on the draw lines. In other words, he has more wiggle room for staying in the "fog of war". He can't use it to leap on people and blow them up though.

You retain lingering vision of any enemy champions you spot ( similar to clairvoyance mastery ) for X seconds for the duration of the ultimate, rather than a hard "reveal".




I'm sorry you are getting so much hate... Comes with the job though XD. I can't say I haven't hated on RIOTERs before myself, though I'm usually not vocal about it. I'm not the only one that thinks you are doing a great job; Rainbow Frogs think you are doing fantastic!

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I am assuming by no counterplay you mean that you don't want to spend some cash for oracles or a pink right?


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Fonis

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Junior Member

08-18-2013

First allow to introduce myself, my IGN is DdC Thanatoz,I have more than 2 years of experience in this game and at the moment I'm a diamond player Rengar main who unlike other mains of the same champion, I have played him since his release in PBE(way before live). I have seen him go from a mega overpowered champion that could literally do every single role in the game:

-He was a better assassin than in live(he had 170% extra damage on empowered Q-Savagery, way more than the 150% on release and the 100% atm).
-He could be a great full tank with good damage output or an excellent off tank(both with the Q damage but also his W used to give 60 armor and mr and heal 15% of max hp)
-He could be a hilarious ap nuker with W having a great base damage of 270 and 1.0 ap ratio.

To the champion that he is right now. Before people says that my opinion is biased I'm going to say that it may be part true but also I know the whole spectre of this situation, I have gone against countless Rengar players during my time playing league so I know how it feels to gib and be gibbed.

This comment will be a 2 parter, the first part will be my feedback about these changes that you guys are planning on doing/testing and the second part will be more of a rant, and I hope you guys at least take my feedback into account because you guys are known for ignoring community feedback( looking at Karma remake).

First Part:

-I will begin tearing apart your statement that Rengar or at least hit ult has 0 counterplay, from 7/23/2013 to 8/15/2013 Rengar has an average of 8.68% pick rate and 46.92% win rate(taken from lolking and calculator :P). If your statement was true, his pick rate would be much higher since he should be a free win and who doesn't want a free win at least in ranked? also his win rate should be more than 50% since not all the games taken into account are normal blind picks where there could be 2 Rengars making 1 of them lose but it also counts ranked queues and ARAMS(taking these into account since these are the most common queues and I don't know if lolking counts Dominion too, most likely it does but for the sake of the argument in leaving it out) and since the team that has Rengar will always win(in the hypothetical situation that he has no counterplay like you mention in your statement) his win rate should be more than 50% but it is lower than that, what does that mean then? do we have cheats that let people win against this overpowered champion? I don't think so. Also worth to notice that his ban rate isn't 100% so that means that people know how to deal with him.

-The Q train, you say you are nerfing his instant burst to make him more of a bruiser/fighter with damage output in a 3-6 seconds interval, let me tell you that those 3 to 6 seconds are an eternity for a teamfight and Rengar doesn't have that long specially since he doesn't have sticking potential unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight Rengar in a bush or to run trough one(if they are alone) or if the enemy team doesn't focus you at all and just lets you slap the carries around summoners rift at your leisure, this will create the conflict of do I still build an insane amount of damage glass cannon items? or do I focus more on survivability/sticking potential?, this will become a vicious cycle and at the end the alternative will be just going Tankgar and splitpush all day since the attack speed steroid is still there and I will also be able to spam Q's to take down towers faster also i will have a massive movement speed boost to run away from enemy team when they try to catch me splitting.

-W Battle Roar from resistances to ad reduction like trynd's W but that actually affects minions, is true that his roar should give that fear factor to his enemies but there are 2 ways to see this, the first one already mentioned but the second one, Rengar is a prideful hunter and with a reason, he has survived countless battles against formidable preys and he has the trophies to prove it, his roar is a manifestation of this, his confidence/cockiness empowers his whole body and makes him relentless and more resistant to damage for when he has to get in those engagements with his dangerous prey. With this changes you are cornering him to a jungle role.

-E Bola shot now a skillshot, sorry but you dropped the ball on this one, this is the last nail in the coffin for top Rengar, before i get into gameplay let me tell you something, Rengar is an expert hunter, he has toned his body, weapons and abilities over the years, this means that whoever he chooses to be the target is not gonna escape the bola shot, that is the point of the bola right now in live, now to gameplay, if you make bola hit minions then it is just gonna be so easy to dodge in lane by hiding behind minions, even if it becomes like ezreal's Q people can just sidestep and dodge it, if you make it that it doesn't hit minions or monsters then he won't gain ferocity from it in the jungle hurting his jungle clearing/ganking potential, the bola strike right now gives Rengar a fallback option in those hard lanes where he can't max the Q because he is gonna get out-traded(Jax, Irelia, Panttheon, just to name a few) or gives him a way to bully safely if he is winning the lane and doesn't want to take risks.

-R no stealth, this change is worse than the bola, you are not only changing his gameplay but also his theme, he is so similar to the predator from the franchise that taking his stealth away conflicts with his overall theme,in gameplay terms, you are giving him a massive speed boost but no stealth, what's the point of that? He won't be able to get to the important targets now that everyone can see him and even if he gets to them we get to the point I made with the Q and W, he won't have the damage to take them down or won't survive long enough specially with the battle roar now not giving mr and with aoe compositions being so popular that is a major problem and all this brings us back to the easy exit, splitpush all day with tankgar and let me remind you that this is what made you nerf Rengar at the end of 2012, pros were just going full tank and splitpushing all day and that imo is far more toxic than we are dealing with right now. If you actually read the posts that some people did in this thread you would know that several have given the same option and is the perfect one to deal with his no warning/no counterplay ult problem(according to you), give him the predator's stealth effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrw7D-YXlo0

At 0:36, 0:41 to 0:43, 2:01 and 2:18 to 2:35 you can see the effect of seeing a predator during his stealth.

An easy way to compare this is with the dark templar from the starcraft franchise or any stealth unit, there is wobbly effect when enemy stealth units walk trough your screen adn you don't have detection, this is a win win situation, it gives us Rengar players a closer feeling to the predator, keeping the surprise factor on the preys not paying attention but also rewarding those who actually watch the map, this lets us bypass wards unless the enemy has a sc2 pro player apm and is checking every single gap in the map where they have vision each second, if you want to throw in maybe a 5% extra mov speed it would be awesome but the numbers right now are fine since this solution isn't that gamechanging.

-Bonetooth Necklace now a jungle item with reduced stats and more utility, sorry but that's not the point of the necklace, with the changes on W, E and even Q cornering Rengar to a jungle role you are pretty much making it so that every Rengar jungle will have to buy this item, your argument is that know he can bypass wards by "brute force" with his massive speed from ult like Rammus or Hecarim, then why would I pick Rengar when I already have those 2 champions who would do a better role at that since their speed boosts are not linked to their ultimates and they have far more reliable crowd control than Rengar, again, the necklace is a way of Rengar to show off, how does he show off? with his trophies but how did he get his trophies? trough battles, what happens after a warrior survives a battle? he not only has more experience for the next one but he is also stronger and that's where the stats from the encklace come from, he has survived a lot of skirmishes and now he is stronger(armor penetration, base dmg/dmg per level and cdr), he is faster(25 mov speed), he is more agile(150 extra range on leap) and he is sneakier(ult lasts longer), the new necklace doesn't make rengar stronger in any way, he is just utility and if i wanted an utility jungler there are other 50 that can make a better job. At the moment the necklace is in a good place, it isn't mandatory for every Rengar player to buy it but if stacked it gives you a nice extra kick, you also wanted suggestions for a max stacked necklace passive well how about this:

10 AD + 2 per level

*3 stacks: 10 flat armor penetration and 5% cooldown reduction.
*6 stacks: +25 movement speed
*9 stacks: 150 extra leap range
*12 stacks: Trill of the hunt duration increased by 3 seconds(no more next attack gives 2 ferocity after ult)
And for the 15 stack give him back the PBE effect on maxed 18 stacked necklace(talking about PBE release when item had 18 stacks)
*15 stacks: Bonetooth Necklace becomes activable, when activated instantly fills Rengar's ferocity bar to full.(Cooldown same as yoummuus ghostblade 45 seconds)

With this change you would be giving Rengar more variety for teamfights, he not only could go in and blow up the carry or just use a bola strike to snare a target but now with this he could pull a clutch empowered roar for a lifesaving healing, he could pull a bola chain to lock down a target, he could use an empowered Q after locking down someone with his empowered E, the amount of gameplay this option opens is high, since this is a pretty strong effect it is at max stacks of 15(pretty hard to achieve), if you want to use those ideas for necklace then why not make another item since your necklace is useless for top lane Rengar, this new item would be unique so people won't buy both making them annoyingly strong but would also give Rengar a fallback option in case he falls behind, he could go tank or off tank with the utility of the new item since he at the moment is pretty weak when he falls behind and is really hard to come back up.

TL, DR: Give Rengar's ult the wobbly effect of the predator and change the necklace a bit(explained above).

That is the end of the part 1, I seriously hope you rioters read it, if I forgot to mention something just ask me and please bring your arguments since I'm sure I can shut them down, don't just go ahead and butcher champions left and right because you refuse to listen to the fanbase's feedback.

Part 2:

This art is going to be a rant, i suggest you don't read it since is mostly me raging :P

I respectfully ask you Scarizard that you stop doing this kind of reworks until you at least resolve the Karma situation, I know several Old Karma players that don't like the new one since now she is just another spam Q mid laner and there is no more "karmatic" feeling like the old one, let's be honest, you and your team ignored completely the fanbase on that rework and the result is now a champion that is picked less and has less win rate than the old one, you would say that she is more viable but she is just generic now and you plan on doing the same sh*t to Rengar, of course there is people that likes the new karma but when I asked them why they told me that it is because you guys just keep buffing her to make her more appealing when the problem is her concept, the fanbase has asked you to give her 2 mantra charges but just keep ignoring them and makign her spells stronger and stronger(and she is still not played), here is a comment on surrenderat20.net that pretty much resumes how me and several other people in this community feel about you and your reworks:

Quote:
The Scout Moobeat a day ago −
I KNEW IT. I knew it's gonna turn out like this! Scarizard freakin' sucks at reworks, you handle him a champion and he MUTILATES him beyond recognition. Firstly he destroyed Karma by taking out everything that made her unique, awesome and special (fun one-of a kind skill set and THE FANS) and instead he slapped in some generic spam-the-Q mage skill set under the alibi that's more viable, and even though it is kinda more viable it's freakin' boring and makes the gameplay with her absolutely stale and anti-joyful. Now they handled him Rengar for some tune-ups and waddya guess, he completely OBLITERATES our cat-man hunter. He's violently ripping out the very spirit from Rengar by ridding of everything special and iconic in his skillset while putting in some recycle bullcrap to compensate. I mean... speed boost while in brush? He's not freakin' Nidalee. His W is now the same like Tryndamere's just that it can't slow you. His ultimate is now a rip-off of Ryze's ultimate (without the AoE spell thing). And lastly, "Knifecat"?! What freakin' dumb **** is this?

Scarizard feels like a necromancer to me - he murders his subjects, manifests their souls, gaining power from them (Rioters get famous by doing reworks) and ultimately reanimates them as skeletons who are merely a fraction of their former selves. Yet in this case though it's more like he's pushing a Behemoth into Skeleton Transformer.
If after all this you still decide to go trough with these changes I just ask you one thing and one thing only, instead of Rengar name him Elmer Fudd, the Wannabe Hunter since you are changing Rengar's gameplay AND theme completely.