A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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IS1938205e2ab4e357e8748

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I always thought Rengar's 'thing' was his leap. Then again, I don't play/see him much, so I'm not so sure.


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Ripperz00

Junior Member

08-17-2013

man this is a sensitive topic


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Vsin

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
Tell you what, lets cut a deal: toss it onto the PBE and then actually LISTEN to the resulting feedback. I'm not a Rengar main, but the way I see it with the stealth:

- As an alternative to Powerball, there's no change.
- As a disengage during split pushes, there's no change.

- As a re-engage, the difference is MASSIVE. Non-stealth cannot juke, sneak behind the lines and then re-engage; you just get cut to pieces as you try to juke.
- As a method of generating Ferocity, it's a MASSIVE nerf. You cannot sit out of vision, Ult, get closer, wait for Ferocity stacks and then strike. The only way this is isn't a dramatic playstle change is if his Ult gives max Ferocity instantly or near-instantly.

Additionally, if the movespeed really is as good as you say, there's just as little counterplay as if Rengar were stealthed. "But Wards!" But Zac, Nocturne, Hecarim, Dark Passage...

-----

The Bola Strike change is a glaringly different beast, simply because it was changed to a skillshot. Namely, there are now a billion ways for it to not hit your intended target (dodging, minions, monsters, enemy champions...), and now it's effectively...well, Karma's Q (whaddya know...) or a bad version of Dark Binding at best. By cranking the range and making it a skillshot, you haven't served to make his gameplay interesting - you've just made his gameplay GENERIC. I'd strongly argue that it took more resources, planning and skill to get in position for the short-ranged, targeted Bola than the proposed skillshot-poke. Oh, and missing Bolas means no Ferocity. Just in case you guys cared.

By the way, y'know Rengar's total lack of gap closing options without bushes or his Ult? Yeah, isn't that supposed to be...well, COUNTERPLAY? Do you really want to reduce the counterplay of a guy who, even after the rework, is still intended to pounce on and murder single targets?


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Thing O Doom

Senior Member

08-17-2013

@Scarizard You asked for why this current iteration ruins lane rengar, I don't have a terrible amount of time but I know you're aware of the current prevalence of ranged top dominance top lane.
These changes ruin his chances of ever winning a lane against a ranged top laner.

E becomes useless to force the all-in that ranged champions are used to (EDIT: to clarify, what you're supposed to do to help win a ranged top lane imo, all inning) due to blitzcrank syndrome. In lower elos he will stomp due to people not knowing how to space minions so that he never gets E off. In games where people are more experienced he'll never be able to all in as well as he used too.
The only thing where it's better is edge cases against brush juking, but that could be solved with wards anyway. Better numbers will not change the fact that this essentially forces rengar into the jungle.

Most ranged top laners (excluding vayne and jayce) are AP based with great disengage. Removing MR on W will further make him useless against this type of (again popular) laner. It will help against adc tops and jayce slightly, but I don't think the benefit outweighs the cons. You can say that he will be a counterpick to a bruiser top, but it's super easy for an enemy team to either send that bruiser (depending on the type, mid) or in the jungle and counterpick rengar with an ap top for a free win essentially. (this does not apply to a last pick counterpick)

The lack of stealth hurts his teamfight assassination and the ability to come into lane with a free all in. (This is again directed at ranged tops, who can just disengage current rengar to tower where he won't have a fair fight.)


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LastLaughLol

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Im liking the changes Scarizard, I think we should stick with the "No Stealth" ultimate. It had created a lot of problems and resulted in the champion being nearly unplayable for past months thanks to the nerfs as a result. I personally do not want to go through that again.

While I do feel stealthing and jumping on someone out of nowhere is awesome and fun, I am willing to sacrifice it if it means Rengar will be balanced and playable.


Bonetooth Necklace needs more balancing.

Perhaps gives double the AD at 14 stacks?


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Khyber

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Senior Member

08-17-2013


Stop ignoring us, stop going Rambo on all the reworks you are given.

"Listen...."


Please for once listen to this champion's fanbase, you didn't do it for Karma so please do it for Rengar. These people feel very strongly about the way he plays, and his identity is strong and they don't want that removed. His identity is the strongest in his stealth.

Don't remove it, and don't make bola strike a skill shot.


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Skaed

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Replacing armor/MR with AD reduction is just a weird choice, to me. It makes him stronger against AD champions and weaker against AP - but why is this something that you want to promote? I just recently read a Riot post about your design philosophy and why you try to make sure games aren't won or lost at champion select. You try to avoid the sorts of super hard counters that exist in DotA (and as someone who mostly plays blind pick, this is very important to me).

So...why shift things in that direction, even a little bit? AP top laners are extremely powerful right now and there are already very few bruisers that can deal with them. It limits Rengar's versatility further and I'm not seeing much actual reason for the change. It's also a change that hurts his teamfighting ability. Even if he lanes against an AD champion, he's going to have to survive in the AoE-heavy environment of 5v5s to be useful past 20 minutes.


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NoChaps

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Rengar IS balanced and playable. I don't understand you people. I play Rengar every game and I don't feel a huge dominance over all champions and the same goes to the lane match up I am against. Rengar is in a good spot leave him alone. jeez


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Winno

Senior Member

08-17-2013

i find it rather hillarious that the only changes they considered from the community didnt affect rengar's kit. You guys are reworking a champion that dosnt need a rework and are gonna ruin it once again. That may sound rude but you already ruined karma, a champ that i played and enjoyed at high elo.

I remember u guys saying the exact same thing about karma's rework *wait until you play it before u come to conclusions*. Too bad, after i saw all those changes i knew shed never be the same nor feel that same and you know what? your doing the exact same thing to rengar.

Well played actiriot.


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tduro112

Member

08-17-2013

If you do go dummy-mode on us and finalize no-stealth on his ult, can he at least have tenacity during it's duration? or else he's just gonna get CC'd and weighed down before he can make it to the squishies.