A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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RYKK888

Recruiter

08-17-2013

Since we're all speculating about written ideas without even numbers, would it be possible to post a video of Rengar using his ultimate or Q train on a couple different champs just to see what it actually looks like?


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nerdydino

Senior Member

08-17-2013

what does rengars ult do now besides the ability to leap and ms buff?


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Afixe

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I know they want to change rengar, but it seems like they're just making another bland without any flavor. The only reason you play rengar as opposed to other bruisers or assassins, is the stealth on the ult. I don't like how he feels now but they're just making another lame, typical completely un unique champion. They refuse to add anything innovative or different than what they have before. Take quinn and valor, there was SO much potential there to have a duo champion like the lone druid from lol, but instead they make a terrible Adc that hardly ever sees play. Or aatrox. another bruiser assassin. Riveting. Or Zac, who despite being made of goo is still basically a green jarven with a bit more CC. They refuse to add anything really different and honestly, I'd prefer they just rework champions like Warwick or Zilean who see no use, than just release more of the same over and over


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Spiritside

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Rengar main here. I like the direction of making him ridiculously fast, but a couple things that bother me are the removal of stealth and the consumption of ferocity to increase his ulti's duration. If you've increased his movement speed so much that when he comes sprinting of the brush to gank, people are like "OH ****" because they know they can't escape it as he leaps at them, I'm fine with the removal of stealth, but if he's too slow and they have enough time to react and /all "lolol rengar such a bad champ," it's going to make a ton of Rengar players deservedly angry.

Part of the fun of Rengar's ulti was being able to pop it and juke people with the stealth. We'll no longer be able to do that, and even if we can run away, people will know exactly what direction we went. As for triple Q, that wasn't really a glitch, and feels like a part of Rengar's identity at this point. Removing it is like Super Smash Bros developers removing something like Wavedashing in the transition of Melee to Brawl. After dekar made it common knowledge and all the other Rengar mains began to play him again, he hit a pretty good point. I feel like, as a designer or artist of any kind, you have to take what may not have been originally intended and weigh the benefits of changing it, keeping it, or enhancing it in some way. Rengar's triple Q wasn't too complicated or difficult to pull off once you knew about it, so I don't see the need to change that by consuming stacks. Just remember Bob Ross' advice, sometimes there are "happy accidents."

He also clearly has counters (well played Jax, Cho, Kayle, Riven, Aatrox, and some others that do pretty well against him in 1v1 situations) both in lane and lategame. If you properly camp top so he doesn't have an easy level 2 all-in, his laning becomes significantly weaker if he can't snowball. Lategame, CC is king vs Rengar - if you can push him away as soon as he jumps (ie Vayne), Zhonya's, dash away, or lock him up in any form of CC, he's just instantly killed and made useless. There is quite a lot of counterplay to Rengar actually, so I don't know why that's the reason he's being reworked.

His main problem is that, like has been identified already, his ulti is his lifeblood. If he doesn't have his ultimate, he's borderline useless if a fight breaks out in an area not surrounded by a bunch of brush. He's very easy to run away from, which is why a lot of Rengar players opt for Boots of Mobility; the extra movement speed extends the range of his jump out of the brush, and helps him get in and out of fights easier.

Not sure how I feel about E being a skill shot, but I think I would like it once I got used to it. Although it seems like it would suck to kill creeps with it (like you have to when you're zoned). Does it go through minions? Is it like Ez's Q? If it is, I'm sure you'd have to increase its range.

Overall, if this makes Rengar a more useable character, I'm happy, but if it just becomes another round of "omg rengar so toxic opop nerfnerf" that Riot complies with because his kit is too strong, I'd be pretty disappointed. As far as I'm concerned, the Karma "rework" was kind of a disaster because she doesn't even resemble the original Karma. Please don't do that to Rengar.


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Elmanbeastio

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdydino View Post
what does rengars ult do now besides the ability to leap and ms buff?
it still detects opponents, it still gives ferocity during its duration before you leap.


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Wizard Cat

Member

08-17-2013

Since Rengar isn't able to use stealth anymore and can be seen by wards, can't you make it that he can also disable wards within the range radius where he can see so people would have to be grouped up in fight and have no vision for certain time from the wards, otherwise I don't see the point Rengar being a predator chasing after his targets when they know he's coming after them


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ZeroAgainst

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yordlelightful View Post
Since Rengar isn't able to use stealth anymore and an be seen by wards, can't you make it that he can also disable wards within the range radius where he can see so people would have to be grouped up in fight and have no vision for certain time from the wards, otherwise I don't see the point Rengar being a predator chasing after his targets when they know he's coming after them
then they would say to much like noc ult


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

08-17-2013

In my honest opinion, if we want to make Rengar's stealth stay, I say why not give him instant stealth inside of bushes and ONLY in bushes. This makes him feel incredibly predator like and would allow him a unique stealth mechanic that preserves the "I'm a jungle cat hunting prey" feel. With a 1 second delay after attacking so that he can't just attack then restealth instantly


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenBandit View Post
Triple Q is really easy to pull off .-.

Oh, look, a diamond player saying it is easy to pull off.

You're diamond.

OFC ITS EASY you KNOW how to play and youre a RENGAR DIAMOND 1 MAIN! 68% of this community DONT know how to play or they wouldn't be in bronze. Not to mention the portion that do; wouldn't be able to pull off triple Q properly.

And you know this. I know you know this because you are diamond and you and I both know 100% that very very very few bronze, silver and even gold players can't pull of a triple Q without a) dying or b) failing to get the ADC and simply flashing away c) ****ing up the triple into a double.

You should also recognize this difference of play; its why you're diamond right? If you didn't see the game differently, you wouldn't be in the top .1% of players. I assume when you see YI you don't scream YI OP OP!!!!

I'm not sure if your comment was one of those pro jokes or a genuinely serious blanket. In either case props to you and I fear your kitty on SR.


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Avl521

Member

08-17-2013

I'm not sure I like this. In any way. I was already concerned with the whole Q changes, and now this "ult" and new bonetooth seem like actual nerfs. And not minor at all.

The bonetooth seems like a glorified jungle item, and all the movement speed seems nice until you're hit with CC. What good is movement speed against roots, stuns or slows? Rengar is not the tankiest champion, and he's played like an assassin meaning almost entirely offensive items. If you're lightning fast but get snared or stunned you just gave a kill. Hell, imagine a Fiddle fear. 3 seconds. You are dead plain and simple. Not to mention, if you see Rengar's current playstyle, he's first and foremost a top laner. What good is this new Bonetooth for a laner? It no longer has the "mini brutalizer" stats that were pretty much the most important stats it gave. If anything, at least make the mini brutalizer stats a reward for 6 stacks or 9 stacks, but keep it. Otherwise I see no incentive to build it as a laner. It sort of makes it a jungle only item and what's most annoying is the fact that it'd make it so there's a unique item for a champion that enhances almost everything about him yet won't be built half of the time.
Another thing that bothers me about it is the redundancy.
3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush.
14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush.

Why the need to get 2 movement speed buffs? Movement speed has a "cap" anyway, so isn't it kind of contradictory? Unless it bypasses it. Basically it's like having Boots of Mobility and Zephyr/Trinity Force? Might as well skip the new bonetooth and get those items, at least they give offensive stats.

The reason movement speed seems to work on Rammus and Hecarim (Hell, even on Singed) is because they are tanky enough that getting CC'd is merely a minor inconvenient. On an assassin I don't see the point of being super fast. You don't need to chase targets, you need to burst them down. Maybe it can work as an escape mechanism, but again as stated before, what good is movement speed if you're stunned or snared or feared? The stealth allowed you to juke and make daring escapes if needed, sometimes even decide to juke and return for a kill trade. It's like taking Twitch's stealth away and giving him 500 movement speed. Do you really think that will be as satisfying considering you can just be CC'd?

Another thing I don't agree with is you mention: "Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. "
I can certainly tell you stealthing and having predator vision gives far more stalking/hunting feeling than moving as fast as a Homeguard Rammus Powerball.

I have not played it, true, but it sounds completely awful. You're already nerfing his Q, his W/Heal, and now Bonetooth and his ult seem far worse? All I can say is WTF.

I agree with whoever said that it's as if all possible uniqueness in a champion is getting changed because it's "unbalanced" instead of nerfing Elise, Olaf, Jayce, Irelia and Rengar, it'd be much nicer if you guys committed to creating more unique champions and reworking champions that have interesting mechanics but are not used because they're not in a good spot (Heimer, Zilean, Sion, maybe even Urgot etc.)
What I can imagine right now off the top of my head is this becoming another Draven case.

Look at the LCS, Draven was picked all the time. He got his passive changed, he's no longer picked. Mostly because in higher elos/pro scene the new passive gives absolutely nothing because it's hard to get kills against people that actually know what they're doing. Wasn't it C9 Sneaky that recently played Draven on stream, got barely 125 gold or so by 25 min and proceeded to tweet that Draven sucks now? Yup, it was.
I expect something similar to happen with Rengar and Rengar players. And I have to ask: Why?