A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Reikson

Junior Member

08-17-2013

So what exactly does Empowered Savagery do in this new build?
Does it simply grant 3 bonus ferocity on top of the standard Q effect?


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ShadeeFan

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I worry about Rengar's top lane viability now. One of the main reasons he even has a chance top lane currently is due to his E being targeted. As a targeted skill, he has a means to harass from behind minions. With it as a skillshot, he loses that ability and will be forced all in to do any damage unless they are out of position and can be easily hit by your E as a skillshot, which won't happen often enough.

I feel as if you are forcing him into a jungler role due to this. Losing his harass is a major top lane nerf, but it does not affect his jungle much. I, personally, will cease playing him if his top lane is hurt this badly, as I doubt I will enjoy jungling him after said changes, since I do not even currently enjoy jungling him.


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TridentMango

Senior Member

08-17-2013

rengar loses stealth, but khazix keeps his stealth? wtf


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JokersUnited

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.

Honestly Riot,
This has nothing to do with the amount of work you're putting into such a project, it's how you're going about "fixing" Rengar.

You are literally taking away the most unique thing about his playstyle: the stealth. His lore and overall gameplay fit so well with a stealth mechanic. Jumping on people out of thin air is what makes him feel so goddamn awesome to play.

Don't do this.


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Brinstal

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Rengar does not need stealth.
While teamfighting, you just use it as a gap-closer, because the stealth is easily countered by a Oracle or pink.
Ganking bot -always pinked by your enemy-, you just use the movement speed part to pass through.
Making Bola Strike a skillshot is just wonderful. This change would allow much more range, and many more chances to close the gap. So, what is wrong with? Hitting Bola Strike will give a "win more" sensation.
Rengar lacks resilience in jungle, so the W change is very much welcome and appreciated.
Just keep the good work, guys.

By the way, the biggest problem with balance is the feedback. You can't guarantee the player experience. Rengar when played in low elo/levels, he stomps because there is no organization, but in high level, the stealth is pretty much useless, and movement speed applies more pressure.
Rengar is a hunter, not a ninja. He stalks, not stealth.


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dEVlL DREAMer

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Scarizard first ruined Karma and now Rengar? How about you stay away from incoming reworks and find yourself something new to do at Riot?

Dont you ever think about touching my Sion, Warwick and Irelia, let Xypherous rework them please...


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Quick post because i woke up way too early, read the last 10 or so pages since i passed out 4~ hours ago, going to pass out again but -

- 28 AD/lvl is not final and i've said across many posts i'm looking to increase this. Damage numbers were kept low to see 'How worth it is this item for these types of bonuses without a heap of AD forcing you to get it?' I have less issue with this getting more AD - this is generally why i don't post numbers because they're constantly in flux. Seeing so many people saying 'I like it/could like it but the AD is so low it seems useless' is why numbers are a tuning point.

- I don't want to seem stubborn when i say that i'm going to continue to test this no-stealth version (Testing is testing, and i'm going to see how it goes) but you guys are pretty loud and clear about needing stealth in some form for this to be anywhere near what you want. I've seen enough posts/feedback that 'Like the changes, concerned/worried about loss of stealth' that i think there are some solutions to have it be back on the kit.

Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)

Thanks for continuing to post - you're all very passionate about the changes, and i am never someone to turn down feedback, even for those of you who don't care for me or where i've taken it so far. I'm listening. I hope the next time i have an update it will be something that most of you can agree with!

what if you removed his current W and replace it with his stealth and movespeed? i mean twitch already has this as a regular spell and he has a good amount of burst as well. you can scale the duration. and for balance purposes remove the ferocity regen on it and the leap. make a new ultimate that integrates leap and the ferocity regen.


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Sharp Chedarr

Junior Member

08-17-2013

The fact that all of Scarizard's posts are downvoted negative, not much is left to say how Rengar players feel about the changes.


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Remain Insane

Junior Member

08-17-2013

You were going in such a good direction with Rengar....and then this? You are essentially forcing him into the jungle because he has no chance in top lane with the stealth removal from his ultimate. I cannot tell you how many times I duel in top lane, bait their summoners, ult, and re-engage for the kill. Or when you see the jungler coming and ult before you get ganked. That is possible with the stealth.
The history of Rengar's ultimate:
1) You can use it offensively and defensively to escape instantly in any situation and split push.
2) 3 second delay on ult forces its use for offensive only plays.
3) No stealth, and no triple Q, not to mention Q does less damage.
How you played Rengar before does NOT apply to how you play the new Rengar.
I don't understand why the other team gets an icon above their head now when Rengar ults when he isn't stealthed and can be seen by wards?
You have "balanced" Rengar into a NEW champion. I DON'T WANT A NEW VERSION OF RENGAR...AGAIN! Balance and Rework do not mean the same thing.


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Rastamon Ganja

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Has anyone else noticed that on the lol website under forum/dev tracker, non of the new Scarizard posts are showing up? or is it just me?