A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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pikachu10000k

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Quick post because i woke up way too early, read the last 10 or so pages since i passed out 4~ hours ago, going to pass out again but -

- 28 AD/lvl is not final and i've said across many posts i'm looking to increase this. Damage numbers were kept low to see 'How worth it is this item for these types of bonuses without a heap of AD forcing you to get it?' I have less issue with this getting more AD - this is generally why i don't post numbers because they're constantly in flux. Seeing so many people saying 'I like it/could like it but the AD is so low it seems useless' is why numbers are a tuning point.

- I don't want to seem stubborn when i say that i'm going to continue to test this no-stealth version (Testing is testing, and i'm going to see how it goes) but you guys are pretty loud and clear about needing stealth in some form for this to be anywhere near what you want. I've seen enough posts/feedback that 'Like the changes, concerned/worried about loss of stealth' that i think there are some solutions to have it be back on the kit.

Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)

Thanks for continuing to post - you're all very passionate about the changes, and i am never someone to turn down feedback, even for those of you who don't care for me or where i've taken it so far. I'm listening. I hope the next time i have an update it will be something that most of you can agree with!
Really happy to hear you're listening to all the feedback and reconsidering adding stealth back in.

I know you mentioned in an earlier post that you don't personally feel that Rengar "needs" stealth a part of his kit to define who he is. I disagree. You made the comment that "just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways." Well... if you think about it, what else is giving players the predator vibe? It sure isn't running fast and throwing bolas. It was the stealth! This isn't about mimic'ing a pop culture reference down to a T, it's about preserving the very core that made this character interesting and cool (at least to me).

This new remake without stealth just feels like another non-compelling version of Master Yi. If I wanted that, I'd spend 450ip and go play him. I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer but hopefully you will offer refunds if you change Rengar's vibe so drastically.


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Bydlarius0

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues.
…and that's it? That's not really informative. I'm completely clueless right there, what kind of issues could it be?


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zenith1010

Junior Member

08-17-2013

The stealth is really what defines Rengar imo. If you could rework Eve and keep her stealth, I'm pretty sure you could do the same for Rengar.


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Nores

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
Rengars use their ultimate to escape all the time, get over yourself.
not really- u do use it sometimes for escape but good rengars rarely waste insanely long cooldown on escape. that is because his ult is almost a guaranteed kill or 2 and objectve. its like using flash for escape when instead you can use it to kill opponent


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toaster jockey

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I like the idea of Rengar being able to have some version of stealth associated with him because it launched as a core part of his theme or identity, and it's very hard to take things away from a champion and still have that champion retain the same "feel."

A modified version of an otherwise-recurring stealth mechanic could prove to be interesting and still have Rengar retain a unique playstyle. The new-and-improved version of the stealth-ulty mechanic (something maybe like "he's 'invisible' to wards in brush" or "he's 'invisible' on the minimap to wards and minions, but not the camera, assuming he's out of fog of war") could also really complement his ulty rework's emphasis on closing the gap quickly. It'd also retain his theme of being apex predator to the most dangerous and elusive of game.


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LightEcho

Senior Member

08-17-2013

As a non-rengar player i'm rather worried about the w change, as is it sounds like hes going to destroy champions like gangplank and riven who are utterly dependent on ad, and then get murdered by rumble and elise, which is bad because it warps laning against rengar so heavily based on match-up.

In other words it pushes rengar toward being a hard counter and thats not something that is healthy for league of legends as a whole.


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Hashmäl

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Keep his stealth.


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iNERF Purple

Junior Member

08-17-2013

While I could care less about the changes to his Bolas and Bone Tooth Necklace. I feel extremely opposed to the idea of removing his stealth from Thrill of the Hunt. It's one aspect of his kit, other than his leap, that made playing him have his own element of fun and uniqueness even while in the category of other stealth users. I revel in being the one to catch the AD Carry, eliminate them and maybe weaken others if the situation was fortuitous. Rengar is not known for being a tanky AD, even after building him bulky he's still fairly easy to terminate. This is where his stealth allows him to live that much longer to get his job done, because it allows him to go in. Without it he is going to be more susceptible to being kited and focused to the point where he can't do anything near than when he had stealth. Now he can't create opportunities, he will have wait for a slip up from a coordinated enemy team, which can come a little too late. Rengar cannot be in the front line and he cannot clean up team fights. That little bit of element of surprise is what makes Rengar playable. It has become blatantly obvious, players do not know what oracles are. There is already simple steps one can take to greatly reduce Rengar's threat level. One is already in the tips list, DO NOT GO INTO A JUNGLE ALONE, especially when it's not warded and you know you can't take on Rengar 1v1. Two, this is within the first, DO NOT TRAVEL ALONE. And lastly, as I've said before, Oracles. I'm assuming most, if not all, of these complaints are new players who don't respect the game enough to learn the In's and Out's of each champion and rage when they don't even try to improve themselves. If this dismissed approach comes to fruition against Rengar fans and players, I expect to be able to refund him. I buy what I pay for.


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FriTzy

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
Community QQ doesn't matter, I'm on the other side of the fence. New Karma is better than old Karma regardless of how much people cry for old Karma, that's just the fact of the matter. People who claimed to play old Karma barely even played her and when she was picked it was considered troll picking because even most of the pro Karma players were bad.

Rengar is getting changed not because he's OP, but because he's UP. Stealth itself is getting changed because Stealth as a mechanic requires power to be removed from the champion to compensate because the mechanic itself is considered extremely powerful, therefore Rengar cannot be. He can't build tanky and be viable, he won't do damage because he has nothing for base stats. He is basically a melee version of Leblanc with situational mobility and longer cooldowns between his ability to instagib 1 person. Why would you pick Rengar over ANY other champion? He already has enough problems:

- He's melee
- No readily available Hard CC
- Isn't viable tanky
- He's still melee
- They nerfed his ability to split push
- Bonetooth is taken into consideration as part of his power so he's weaker in general to compensate for an item most Rengar players don't even build
- He's melee and he's not broken

Realize that if he's not broken as a melee, he's useless. All viable melees in this game need to either be a bruiser, must have CC governed only by cooldowns or have some sort of broken mechanic that would never see the light of day if they were created by riot now unless there was a huge mistake (ie, Poppy's Ult and Master Yi's Alpha Strike crits).
I didn't meant Karma in a bad way,what i meant was, dont change his kit so he'll be like another champion, he's late game bruiser, whatever ppl says. if u go bruiser with 40% CDR you just spam skills at lvl 18.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bydlarius0 View Post
…and that's it? That's not really informative. I'm really clueless right there, what kind of issues could it be?
The hell do you think is the issue? If you give someone too much Warning that you're coming at them from stealth, they're gunna ****ing run away or go back to the safety of their team. It's as if you didn't have stealth at all.

All these nay-saying comments say to me is that you people are ****ing terrified of change. You're terrified for no good reason.

Let me just say that stealth, overall, is a stupid mechanic. It's too good when it works, and it's awful when it doesn't. This is not to say Stealth isn't cool, I agree, stealth is very cool. But in the end, it ISN'T FUN. And that's the whole point of the changes.

How fun is it to be on the receiving end of a Rengar triple Q insta-burst from stealth? Not very, because you either didn't have a warning and exploded or got away in time and nothing happen. The idea of Renagr's stealth ult is extremely Binary and it's part of the reason Rengar has been either Super Strong or laughable.

I'm sorry but removing the stealth is the healthiest thing that can be done for the game. Now that Rengar isn't burdened by having one of the stupidest mechanics in the game anymore, he can receive real buffs if he doesn't turn out strong enough. He can be allowed to actually reach a place where he can be strong and NOT overpowered or strong and very fun.

It's like you all think that Rengar won't get any tune ups after this and that it's final.

Oh, and all of you saying he's now like Master Yi, you're ****ing stupid. That is the single stupidest comparison I've ever seen ever. They do completely different things. Yi is supposed to be a melee auto attacker, Rengar is a Tanky-DPS Assassin. Rengar insta-kills someone and then does nothing while waiting for cooldowns, Master Yi dives in at an opportunistic moment and begins to cut people up with AAs. This is like saying Evelynn and Annie are the same champion because their ults are AoE. ****ing stupid.

I mean really. The sheer amount of you people crying and whining is the saddest thing I've ever seen.

TL: DR Taking the Stealth away from Rengar gives him a chance to be buffed elsewhere, people saying he's like Master Yi now are stupid, and you guys are horrified of anything changing so much that it makes me genuinely sad.