A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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RedNoire

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjafi View Post
Scarizard: I commend you for being so transparent with the community about the kit of a champion. However, as you're seeing, it has heavy prices.

Being a graphic designer, I learned long ago that I should never show my process works to my clients! It starts to get absolutely out of control when you begin to show them too many options and they get all hazy-eyed. While I do agree that the community does have a voice, I'm afraid that you guys are starting to flirt with that line of showing the innards of champion design a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, I think the good side of the League community is full of amazing ideas and feedback, but the riot designers can only take this so far before they get lost in their own swamp of confusion.

Going back to the roots, I think the most important thing is maintaining Rengar's identity and keeping it unlike existing champions. This character started with you guys, the designers, and it's what we all fell in love with. I think stealth and leaping are his core mechanics, but moreso leap. Rengar has always been an assassin at heart. Getting rid of stealth and trying to make him a bruiser/fighter may go against his identity that has been created since his release.

Would it be cool to be rocket cat? Yeah! I'll love this champion no matter what, but what's happening here is you're not only reworking him, but changing his identity. Everyone should ask themselves(most importantly, the designers) would Rengar be Rengar without stealth? I do think it is possible, but he would have to be compensated with a stronger theme on his leap, then, because that's all he's got. Adding a leap mechanic to someone who gets hit with the bola skill shot would work to drive that theme home, I guess.

I love Rengar's flavor and always will. I, for one, wouldn't mind his gameplay changing in the ways you've come up with, but I get bored easy and like new/different.
Listen to this guy about identity! Also bola skill shot + leap would be great


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VoodoosV3nd3tta

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Gonna give another post before i finish for the night since it's late -

A few thoughts:

Firstly, a personal one. I'm not -hiding- from any of you guys because i stopped posted an hour after i posted the changes. I just left the office because work was over and i had plans. It happens to be Friday, and i'm a human being - so i went to see the 'All Random, All Mediums' Art Show with non-league pieces auctioned by the creators of league art themselves. The show was awesome, the art was awesome, the people were awesome.

And i spent 100% of it on my droid reading the forums, taking a break, refreshing the forums. The ride up, the show, the dinner, the ride home. I am not hiding from you. I care what you think. I spend honestly far too much time reading what everyone has to say from the truly unique but maybe hard to balance ideas, to the flatly incorrect, to the constructive feedback, to the rage about anything i do.

I'm being sincere when i say i wish i could just post more and communicate more, and i apologize if i'm never able to meet that threshold of attention that you guys desire, especially when we are working on big changes that you dudes are passionate about.

Second, about Xelnath. Xelnath is a cool dude - he has a ton of experience in design, and despite his crazy 'somedays i'll crash the playtest with my mad scientist ideas' i learn a good bit from him just based on the set of values that he has, even when they clash with what's balanced/balanceable in our game.

We also disagree on a ton of things. Especially on the removal of stealth from Rengar's ultimate. It was something i was trying because the tuning of our previous 'warning' mechanics were leaving much to be desired and not doing a whole ton in the way of counterplay, and he actually really enjoyed it.

This isn't 'Xelnath approved! You all have to like it!' I'd just appreciate people laying off personally attacking him or his play just because he happens to think it's good. Dude plays a ton of Rengar and happens to like the changes. And as for 'You're not a true Rengar player because you used your ultimate one time to run away.' One time he used it to run away, and one time he lived. Am i to believe that anyone in this thread has never once used their ultimates to escape a gank or sticky situation, ever? Are you to believe that anyone is not 'a Rengar player' just because they did? I don't mean to be granular, but it's something i've read a lot in this thread and it seems nonsensical.

Which leads me to the next thought -
It may very well be that the removal of Rengar's stealth is a terrible decision, one that ruins the very fabric of space-time, and if that is so i will not go through with it. I'm not saying 'yep, i've made up my mind!' What i'm saying is over the time i've worked on Rengar (with some changes inherited from Classick), we have tried a lot of things on a lot of abilities. Some of them have even been fun. This is just another change that's trended well in our testing, and while i'll continue to try it, nothing in this thread is final. I'd like a version similar to this to go to PBE so that players who are passionate about it can test and give feedback, but i will always make the best decision for Rengar.

A few misc thoughts -

-28 AD on bonetooth is not final, and is the exact reason i tend to not post numbers. Numbers are inconsequential. Everything about a champion could be buffed 500% if we believe the mechanics are on-point. Bonetooth will have enough AD to compensate. None of these Rengar mechanics are in our competitive balance tests, and as such, aren't really being tuned. We're nailing feel and mechanic direction.

-To the one person some pages back who thought we were taking the slow from Bola Strike, how did you get that idea? I mean this honestly because if i posted something misleading i'd like to correct it. All i said was Bola Strike is getting more range/damage due to being a skillshot.

-All this talk of 'Predator has stealth, Rengar needs it' sounds really silly to me. This is completely outside of the discussion of whether or not Rengar is a good candidate to have stealth on. The argument that 'just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways'. That's not how we make champions, nor will it ever be. The Predator alien is a tech-using alien bounty hunter. Rengar's a lion that uses hand-made tools and lives in the jungle. He has a launch skin based off of the Predator because it seems really cool (and because we knew Kha'Zix was not far off), and they both use heat-seeking vision. Rengar's had a ton of inspirations, from Lion races in other IP's to Hunter characters from other IP's - There are more compelling arguments as to why rengar should have the mechanic, but saying that he needs it because the two characters are similar is something i can't buy

EDIT: About this being jungle-centric, Top Rengar is still totally a thing that we want and will be viable. From all of our lane-testing between myself and other top laners within the company we haven't seen that he's much worse, other than his 'lol first blood at level 2' all-in is considerably weaker. His Q-train hits like a truck, and increased AS% as well as generally better bases + cooldowns have added to his damage potential in toplane - not to mention the AD Reduction make him take almost 0 minion damage and really put the breaks on AD scaling champions/bruisers that like to rush tank stats (Lookin' at you, Renekton).

Will continue to tune and make this true, but the reason a lot of this looks jungle-centric is just because we wanted to make sure that any buffs/changes that were to increase Rengar's general performance would buff his jungling aspects as well.
So much wrong with this post, first of all, never let GD know they are getting a rise out of you, they will not stop just because you tell them to "back off" if anything they will just come at you harder.

Now onto the rehash, i mean rework. You're getting downvoted because you took the IDENTITY AWAY FROM RENGAR , we don't care if it it's a buff. We're sick and tired of Riot butchering champions that have a niche in the game ( which is the way the game should be balanced ) not this 6-7 champions in the same category who play and feel the same, pick which one has the coolest skins! Hec and Rammus already have the playstyle you're describing, we do not care if this change makes rengar 500000000000% more viable, WE WANT AN IDENTITY. If you're going to completely ruin his identity, give him a new UNIQUE one. Cohesiveness has a lot to do with why people like champions, we like to figure out tricks, we like to have the opportunity to outplay and out smart. With the changes Rengar just becomes a speed machine, totally ruins his lore, what about moving 100000000% faster in his ult makes him a stalker? Nothing. Stalker implies sneaky not speed.

I won't play Rengar after his rework, I main him in plat 3 and I can tell you that removing stealth takes away everything that made this champion fun and unique.


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Firemave

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Why shouldn't Bonetooth Necklace be a must buy?

I don't understand this logic at all. It's a unique item for Rengar, shouldn't Rengar being use it every game if he's performing well?

I don't get all these reworks that end up ruining champions, like LeBlanc.


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Berserk Knight

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Have it so Rengar's ult stealths him, but only against sight wards and minions.
He'll be detectable if he's in the vision range of a vision ward, turret, or champion.
(Kind of like Eve's stealth, but with the detection radius close to a champion's FULL vision radius, so there's some room for the enemy to see him and react before he can jump on them.)

With this, he can still come up somewhat close to his targets even if they spammed sight wards all over the place, or if he's sneaking up on them from behind when there's an enemy minion wave coming up.
But when he's on the same screen(=pretty much "combat range"), he'd be visible so there's some window for his targets to respond with whatever utility at their disposal.

I know this would still be more or less useless in a full-blown 5v5 teamfight except for the ferocity charge-up and the movement speed, but in small-scale skirmishes and lane ganking, it could still work.

Edit: Then again, in lategame teamfights, there's gonna be SOMEONE with an Oracle, so...not THAT big of a difference.


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spiket31

Junior Member

08-17-2013

why are you ruining rengar? you are destroying his ult. do you hate rengar? did he grape your children? why do you have this need to destroy this champion?
rengar is going to be completely useless if you do this and the community has spoken we have said NO. so just admit you are wrong for trying to do this, and send in your letter of resignation.


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
One simple question for Scarizard:

At this point, what is making Rengar any different from Yi? They both have speed ultimates, they both focus on attack speed and they both have heals. The only different thing with Rengar is his passive and his E. Master Yi functions better as an assassin seeing as how he gets resets. So tell me, how is Rengar any different from Master Yi?
Except Yi has a persistent speed bonus that lasts for 10 second(+4 for kills and assist) that is uninterpretable, whereas Rengar's ultimate consists of a speed boost that procs his passive. So if you take the leap away all it is is a 12 - 17 second ghost that grants radar vision, some ultimate. Oh but now you for 3 seconds after the leap the MS bonus is retained, good luck not getting CC'd though when you jump into the enemy team.


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Elmanbeastio

Senior Member

08-17-2013

@Scarizard

I think the kit you proposed could work. This is the only rework that comes to mind where the champ is actually almost strictly improved by numbers tuning, rather than QoL changes and new functionality. Almost all the proposed utility changes hurt rengar, while almost always being traded for power,range,cooldown,duration. But we dont get those #'s.

However, you can see why people are mad. Without the numbers(which I know can change), he lost tankyness, stealth, E is not targeted, his combo requires some precision in being pulled off, and his R eats your ferocity.

Its also not that easy to imagine how well hed actually do with improved numbers. Completely guessing that, since the base damage of spells are gonna go up, as well as some ratios, he will actually hit like a truck on empowered spells. You can get the feeling that Renekton's Fury system gives you, instead of Rengar's current super high utility, low damage spells.


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Elmanbeastio

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firemave View Post
Why shouldn't Bonetooth Necklace be a must buy?

I don't understand this logic at all. It's a unique item for Rengar, shouldn't Rengar being use it every game if he's performing well?

I don't get all these reworks that end up ruining champions, like LeBlanc.
Leblanc is actually quite strong. All that happened was she changed from an early game bully with terrible late game into a more normal type of flow, where she has a MUCH better late game and her ult can mimic anything thats needed into of always mimic Q.


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iAffliction

Junior Member

08-17-2013

(Note: I only play Rengar when given the chance to do so)

I would like to start this off by saying that I am not raging at Riot, rather just trying to get further insight into what they are going for with Rengar.

Abilities:

Q: Not as powerful as it is currently, but will be able to be used several times to equal the same damage.
This is in my opinion a nerf to his q, if people feel that it is too powerful and are changing it, it means that it isn't going to be so powerful anymore simple as that.

W: Removal of Armor and Magic Resist, replaced with AD reduction to enemies hit.

This is fine by me, I really like this idea, it is very useful against AD opponents, I feel that it would make him stronger in 1v1s against most top champions.

E: Range increased, lock-on changed to skillshot.
I always max e on Rengar first. It is such amazing harass, it is a lock-on and does roughly 250 damage,it is just so safe to max. Bola is on a low cooldown, has good damage and it is the only way you win against a Fiora/Teemo/Jax. However with this change it can no longer lock on and it can't really be used to harass anymore seeing as it is skillshot and can no longer hit somebody behind creeps, basically useless top lane now. This would be ok, I could just max Q again, but I dont feel that I want to do that either considering it isn't as strong anymore. I was very sure that as long as his bola was the same or stronger he would always be fine top lane, but as it SOUNDS (I don't actually know) he is going to have an extremely weak top laning phase.

R: Increased MS, still shows enemies in the area, no longer stealths, consumes ferocity on cast which increases duration based on ferocity consumed, still has MS for a few seconds after he jumps.
This in my opinion is very hurtful to Rengar. As he currently stands Rengar can outplay several opponents in fights by bursting, going invisible, acting like he is running away, and just when the enemy thinks they have won the fight, he jumps back in and kills them. This is gone now entirely. He also can no longer go invisible when a wild jungler appears and ganks you, Rengar at the moment can go invisible when he is low and make it back to his tower in this situation, however this is easily stopped by a pink in the middle of the lane or in a bush. Something else to consider is that at the moment Rengar can have 2-5 ferocity, ult, q, build up more ferocity,q,w or e, and q again (Triple Q). This is gone as well, considering that his ferocity is consumed upon activating ult.

To recap I am not raging at Riot, I am sure that they would never just say, "Yeah I feel like ruining a champion today...I know let's ruin Rengar!" No they have a vision in mind I just want to know what that vision is. I feel that if his Q isn't as strong, his e isn't as effective, and his ult doesn't give stealth that he is being nerfed. However I am probably wrong. Please don't post too much hate I am just saying what this sounds like in my opinion. Oh and one last thing, how are these changes going to effect his early game, currently Rengar is amazing early game and the community loves playing Rengar and going for a kill early, will this still be an option with the changes to Q and E?


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tduro112

Member

08-17-2013

I think that the "Movement Speed upon leaving brush" stack on bonetooth should be placed at a lower tier. His lane ganks are really gong to need the extra speed to make sure he can land his now-skillshot E. And please put stealth back on Ult!