A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

C13Magnum

Member

08-17-2013

For the 9 stack what would be really cool is if he gained infrared vision in a limited radius (around leap range) while in a bush. Even better if it worked against monsters (but not minions) too, allowing him to jump around the jungle. This really aids in his stalking in the jungle.

If not that, something along that theme could be nice, like infrared vision on enemy champions you have recently attacked (basically a stealth reveal mechanic but also good when being juked in fog of war). Allows him to be that hunter that never loses his prey (without actually making him impossible to get away from).

Also, others have mentioned gaining ferocity after leaping with his ult, perhaps the 9 stack makes his ult consume 2 or 3 ferocity and get the duration as if it consumed 5.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mobilized Boat

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAY9999 View Post
Just some ideas:

Unseen Predator
-Rengar will now grant 1 Ferocity while staying in the brush for every 5 seconds

Empowered Savagery
- Rengar's next attacks will leap on his target
**** no, that's overpowered. Unless you mean remove Unseen Predator's leap, in which case still no.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Laminis Tigris

Member

08-17-2013

Honestly, I'm digging the changes. Q-Train sounds like a nice little mechanic and the skill shot is really nice for me - I'm a sucker for skill shots. W changes I don't really mind but his W isn't really a skill that had much impact for me. The ult changes are really interesting, but so many people are upset about it losing stealth. I can see their reasoning, but I feel like a lot of it is no one giving it a chance. With that much MS, you can run away and then double back and perform that assassination that your team needs. That's how I use Rengar's ult, at least. I fight the front lines a bit, fake like I'm running away, turn around and assassinate the priority target I need to. With the MS boost, I feel like that'll help using it like that. But that's just me. One thing you could do for the stealth is give him stealth while in a bush for .5 to allow for some hardcore juke master plays and further push him being the king of the jungle and making him a bit less of a threat. You could also add a VO that sounds like him going through a jungle (such as leaves crunching, twigs snapping, maybe some tribal drums for his alt skin) if you're near him doing using this stealth. This would give the feeling like he could be anywhere and would still provide players with a "Ohgodstabcatisgonnakillme"-esque feel. That's my two-cents on the matter. I'm loving the work you're doing on him though. Keep up the good work!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

piratesgoyarrrr

Senior Member

08-17-2013

What about a second activation during his ult that lets him stealth for a shorter duration than the whole ult? 2-3 seconds of a 12-18 second window?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Siky

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
- I don't want to seem stubborn when i say that i'm going to continue to test this no-stealth version (Testing is testing, and i'm going to see how it goes) but you guys are pretty loud and clear about needing stealth in some form for this to be anywhere near what you want. I've seen enough posts/feedback that 'Like the changes, concerned/worried about loss of stealth' that i think there are some solutions to have it be back on the kit.

Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)
I don't know why people are so clingy to the stealth mechanic, but I don't see why when stealth itself takes potential power away from Rengar. Would people rather he gets less power to retain stealth or remove stealth to gain more power?

The only thing I can think of, to have stealth still be part of the ultimate and for it to remain fair or have some sort of counter-play is to tie it into his new Bonetooth Necklace at 9 stacks. Instead of extending the duration of Thrill of the Hunt, have Rengar stealth whenever he is in brush making it so if he enters brush he's invisible except to pinks/oracle. This gives him some defensive stealth now as well when it comes to juking and can also have him slip through bad sight ward placements that don't cover all paths into the brush itself.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

shorttallguy

Member

08-17-2013

So I'm actually more pleased with your plans for changing Rengar than I though I would be, but I'm not sure I'm entirely happy either. There's 3 main problems I have.

1)Making Bola strike a skill shot makes it a lot harder to target and enemy or last hit creeps that are in a crowd. This is kind of a big deal, but the fact that you are increasing the range, and, because it is a skill shot, you can target enemies not in your vision makes up for it for the most part, so I can live with this. After getting my hands on it I might end up liking it even more than live, but who knows.

2)While I agree that stealth is the part of Thrill of the Hunt that I appreciate the least, it is still a BIG part of it. The thing about being a hunter is usually not letting your prey know you are coming. I mean I guess you can brute force your way in for a kill, but that's not how Lions do it and that's not how the Predator does it. I liked the idea of Rengar being like a Lion version of the Predator and I am a big fan of stealth, which you guys keep killing (I just want old Eve back). With that said, if something absolutely MUST go and you guys are unwilling to leave Rengar's Ult be, I guess stealth is what I could most live without. It definitely sounds better than some sort of warning to the enemy that Rengar has used his ulti. Also I can't really think of anything that would be better than your idea. In that sense I can live with it, and I'm happy it wasn't something else.

3)Lastly, I do not like that passive on Bone Tooth Necklace at all. Why do I want 20% more damage on monsters for a hunter of champions? I don't understand. You absolutely must change this. How about something very cost inefficient at early stacks/levels/build but something that is incredibly cost efficient at max stacks and end game. How about keep it a one item recipe, like on live, with 1-5% damage amplification on Rengar's attacks and/or abilities per stack. It doesn't even need any other stats. This way it doesn't automatically make you stronger (other than through new passives at 3, 6, 9, and 14 stacks) but will really boost your damage significantly if you get on a roll while building damage. This might be pretty strong at max stacks when Rengar builds damage, but it will be harder to get there and Rengar is supposed to be the ultimate hunter anyway isn't he? If he has the trophies to prove it he should be rewarded. Plus this means it probably wont really be cost efficient for a Rengar not building damage and wont become a must by. Alternatively it could be a percentage increase in AD per stack.


Overall, I who have to say it sounds like you're actually doing a pretty good job on this rework which I was skeptical of at first. I'm a big fan of Rengar and I hope this rework turns out well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BlueRoseleader

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Well i guess rengar is gonna be another generic bruiser instead of a creative jungler now.

wish i had bought volibear, would have been better off now -_-


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hyperion01

Recruiter

08-17-2013

Please don't remove the stealth. Ever since the Twitch and Evelynn rework, champions with a true "stealthy" feel no longer exist. I know that I am not alone in my feeling that stealth is THE MOST ENJOYABLE PART of Rengar.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vladamphir

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!
Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush

...

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.
Scarizard I think i might be on to something. Most people are upset because they identify Rengar's Ult (With Stealth) as a major identity of the predator theme which is 'Rengar'. So, instead of having the mechanic completely removed, have it something to be earned (Partially).

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt gains, "Rengar is stealthed while in bushes or outside of champion vision range.

Or something to that effect. The point is, it can't be abused early because he has to get at least 9 stacks to use it, it gives bonetooth necklace a much larger inclination to buy, and it might in some small way satisfy the fans that rengar keeps his Predator-esqe theme.

Its not perfect but i imagine you clever champion designers could implement some version?

Edit: Perhaps "Rengar is stealthed while in bushes and for 2 seconds after leaving bushes". Imagine the jukes. You are mid lane and you warded the bush, you see Rengar barreling at you with ult on, but he entered the bush and is now stealthed. What now?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
I don't know why people are so clingy to the stealth mechanic, but I don't see why when stealth itself takes potential power away from Rengar. Would people rather he gets less power to retain stealth or remove stealth to gain more power?

The only thing I can think of, to have stealth still be part of the ultimate and for it to remain fair or have some sort of counter-play is to tie it into his new Bonetooth Necklace at 9 stacks. Instead of extending the duration of Thrill of the Hunt, have Rengar stealth whenever he is in brush making it so if he enters brush he's invisible except to pinks/oracle. This gives him some defensive stealth now as well when it comes to juking and can also have him slip through bad sight ward placements that don't cover all paths into the brush itself.


I am thinking the same thing.


Yes losing stealth is a big thing...but if it means he gets a lot of power back to his stats and abilities then I am all for it.