A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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NoChaps

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I have a great idea! How about we just keep him as he is and leave him alone. In my opinion Rengar doesn't need any changes and is in a good spot right now. Some people might not agree with this but really, Rengar is not a champion you see every game and it's not like when you see him it's GG for you because he is invincible. It's not like that at all. It's also not like you can't do anything with him, sure he was nerfed but you can still perform really well with him. I play lots of Rengar and to be honest, yes the stealth might be a little annoying but if the enemy adc sticks with their support or tank you can't just jump from ult and kill them because everyone will focus you. Now the W changes I am fine with but E is totaly absurd. Maybe better in jungle but in lane it sounds like a sack of dicks. Also, when I read the changes to the ult it sounds like you want to make Rengar to be a jungler not a laner. I don't understand why you want him to be a jungler when he is fine at top lane. Sure he is weak in jungle but its achievable to perform well with him. And the new ult is just horrible. His ult is more like a Rammus speed ball but Rammus can speed ball into a team and tank all day and Rengar will just get eaten by damage because he is too squishy. What if an enemy Lux spots you while you are ulted and trying to kill her? She will just Q and E you and she will retreat to her team or a tower. And when the damage is spread out u can't dive under the tower and instagib her at all.

Please leave Rengar alone, he doesn't need any reworks. Why would you even think of reworking a champion that is not broken of weak?


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lvl 8 Psyduck View Post
fukking Xelnath never played rengar and giving us a feedback about his changes

just leave rengar ALONE

LEAVE MY BRITNIY ALONE YOU BASTARTS
rofl that last sentence had me in tears


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Ripperz00

Junior Member

08-17-2013

i keep checking to see if they are going to respond to my refund post i dont think im going to get a yes.....this makes me sad


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HayabusaZero

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I'm not an expert in Rengar, but i like this last changes. As always, people is just afraid of the changes, without even trying the champ (it is impossible currently, so we'll have to wait until the PBE to have a proper opinion). At least wait until you can have the champion at your hands to be on disagree of it design...

I know people will downvote me, and i don't really care. That just demostrates my point to begin with!


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BabySnatcherr

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
We just want Rengar to be left alone. You aren't getting downvoted just because the changes suck, but you are changing a perfectly fine and fun champion.
For real. I'd rather there be NO changes to Rengar than these changes...


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.

Honestly to you I respond with this as well. I'd also like to point out I have 12 upvotes on my original post comparable to Scarizard (a red with a tag attached as well for easy clicking) has 21.


Clearly the "people" support me just as much as they support Scarizard's opinions on Rengar - see his post 52 about people in the thread being - against the "loud and tankier" approach of giving AR/MR to battle roar.

Snipped scarizard's # 52 post.
I hope Scarizard you take the time to read my post and consider it; I know it very very typical for Riot members to shy away from posts that essentially call them out so bluntly to the point of being perceived as rude. Especially when those posts contradict them heavily and have valid concerns while at the same time again being slightly rude.


I respect you as a person for taking the time to post all of this; but like Karma you are going to butcher Rengar. You and the rest of the design team can praise her as being played competitively now (Particularly by a team that subsequently went 0-3 (GMB) and who have stopped using her since!) Any team that won with Karma won because of the rest of the team; not her contribution. Karma is a walking Q bag with no diversity, no options and again no "OH WOW DAMN" ability. Still low pick rate and Karma players are STILL saying she is not fun/not interesting at all.

1) Bonetooth necklace is now garbage. 28 AD, useless buffs to abilities that will be tweaked obviously as they are now - to require getting bonetooth or feel lackluster. I'm sorry currently if I don't get bonetooth my leap feels garbage.

2) No stealth on Rengar? So, I just randomly leap at you now? You gave him a -once a team fight gap closer- that IS his ultimate? Where do you think Rengar will be played now? Certainly not competitively - ever - he will literally be too obvious now.

3) No MR/AR on battle roar? Again you've ruined any chance of Rengar being a jungler tank - S3 meta as is he wasn't doing well now he is dead and gone with these roar changes. Trading AR/MR bonus for AD reduction is **** sure I can jungle clear easier (Who cares I can jungle any champion in the game its about how you SCALE/FARE OUT OF the jungle) ALSO; trundle can attest to AD reduction being a **** utility skill. Don't think so? What about Tryndamere's AD reduction skill? Its a load of nonsense! Tryn beats an ADC 1v1 because of huge crits and his ultimate; not and never because of an AD reduction. Massive nerf that will crush Rengar's viability as an assassin and in the top lane especially.

4)To add to this point the statement that Rengar is trying to "impose his will/intimidate" is entirely consistent with having AR/MR - if it is not by Scarizard's logic then likewise having him reduce AD is also not imposing his will/intimidation. Intimidation/imposing will sounds more like a fear effect rather than an AD reduction effect thrown in to make Rengar appear to be tanky.

How does this even play into mages? When mages are intimidated they lose attack damage? Make no sense thematically either. Mage's are intimidated = can't cast spells as fast = silenced in this game.

Fiddlesticks' fear: TERRIFY..THATS intimidating and imposing HIS FEARSOME will. What you're telling me is that Rengar is scary-----but not that scary...or threatening OR ANYTHING with a useless AD reduction ability. Imposing my will = reduction in your ad? Wtf? No = slow = silence, fear, disorient whatever. Never AD reduction.

5) Your "base stat possible buff" is a load of nonsense. Marksmen (ADCS) have near close stats (except for MR) to Bruisers; Hell announcers make it pretty clear quite often that Draven has bruiser stats. Having a 30/40/50/60 AD reduction - which won't be what youre giving Rengar; still wouldn't make him hurt ADCs - they will escape - you will have wasted your ult to get to them and probably miss bola on another target now in the confusion.


6) Increasing my MS during my ult to reach top to bottom with no boots etc is trash. Its a trash on Quinn and it will be trash on Rengar. I don't need movement speed, I need surprise. I need power. You have also effectively turned Rengar into a forced jungler with this change as I can no longer trick someone up top to stay and gut them while stealthed. Nor can I really gank from top-mid lane as I will simply be seen by the mid laner who will flash away! or walk away as they warded the bush!


Look at this thread, look at the posts, you have + 21 upvotes on your first Red post in a Rengar thread...in GD, a place filled with comments and where useless threads get more upvotes than this one with 52 Red posts.

You can SAY people like your ideas; but they won't release day. Its sad to say but this is a butchery of Rengar to the point where he is now -maybe?- a generic bruiser. Actually, he sounds like a worse form of Tryndamere (yes I know its not good to compare kits but I don't see a situation where I would want Rengar over Tryn - maybe for map control via Rengar's ulted MS....but then when a teamfight occurs Tryn sounds better).

- Rengar

- No hard CC
- 1 Ultimate gap closer
- AD reduction
- Q train
- fast MS (But low base MS to compensate for the high ult obviously you will do this, typical balancing attitude)
- Long range slow that can be blocked by minions? (Idk yet?...) But still will not do significant damage to have an impact.

VS.

Tryndamere

- No hard CC
- Has an easier to use slow - the enemy has to be running away!
- Easier to use AD reduction
- Similar trade off - heal instead of damage - heal instead of Q train for Rengar
- Crits to burst MUCH harder than Q train I GUARANTEE that.
- Gap closes just the same; albeit a bit slower traded with the fact that he can reduce its CD.
- Ultimate that makes him damage immune in case of screw ups/in order to survive even better.

Why would I pick Rengar over Tryn? Rengar is now just as CC prone - more so because his leap is telegraphed and he has less AR/MR. Rengar doesn't have any burst compared to a Tryn crit either, and his slow is inferior - targets one person. His heal is also inferior because unlike Tryn's he can't spam it!

Please please tell me; what is to stop this new Rengar from simply being CCed and blown up even more so than Tryndamere is right now? Rengar no longer has the stealth, burst damage or AR/MR to survive CC


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TheDirtySwine

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I think what they should do is make Bonetooth Necklace part of his passive (He's already wearing it anyway) and they should make his ult able to do this. When you activate his ult the first time he should be able to move fast and be in stealth however he cannot jump. If you are then in his ult long enough he should become unstealthed and be able to jump. I've just fixed a few of their problems. Bonetooth necklace doesn't have to cost money and it's entirely up to the player to get stacks. Rengar is no longer a no reaction time insta gib because he will become unstealthed before he strikes. And we still get to have a predator feel!


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
That + buffs to health/health regen in the main post make me most excited to play him toplane, as a top-laner main specifically. I'd like more insight into why you feel Top Rengar suffers here?
Okay, I will raise some valid discussion here and tackle why top lane rengar is getting hurt.
First off, we have the W changes. You stated before that Rengar players will feel more confident if they see an AD champion, but countering a Rengar now will be too easy. Champs like Cho'Gath, Elise and Lissandra will fare very well against Rengar. If you are against an AP top, your W might as well not even exist since the only thing it will be used for is the heal.
So now, Rengar is more easily counter picked. That hurts him a lot. Rengar has no escapes without counting his ult. Sure he can bola and walk away, but that's the problem. If you are going to want to trade with someone, you will use all of your abilities to generate the most ferocity. So now when you jump on someone, you are committing to an attack. Previously, the W would give you armor/MR so you would be able to sustain better and trade more efficiently. This is now impossible vs any AP top.
Secondly, the E changes.
The E change is much worse than the W one. There are a few champions who will **** you up in melee range, such as Darius and Riven. To deal with this, Rengar players harass with E and, more importantly, last hit minions with E. This way, Rengar can get up to 4 ferocity and double Q the enemy that way you can attempt to trade effectively. Now with the bola changes, you won't be able to harass because 9 times out of 10, the enemy laner will be standing behind minions. Secondly, you won't be able to last hit because the melee minions might get in the way of the caster minions. I imagine a tanky champ such as Renekton could just take the bola to prevent lasthitting, but that just depends on how much you want to increase the damage.

Finally, the ult changes. I won't go into too much detail here seeing as how people have covered why it's bad idea to keep the changes. Without stealth, you won't be able to escape from ganks easier. If you are against a jungler with a ton of CC and he ganks you, you will just be stunned and your movement speed will mean jack ****. So now Rengar has no escapes from 2 man gank, let alone a 3 man gank.

Let me know what you think. I basically voiced what everyone here is saying except I said it in a nice way ;D

TL;DR yeah, top cat is hurting.


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TheUlf

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
*Awesome, detailed post with the latest testing kit that idiots are downvoting*
These changes sound wonderful, I can't wait to see the final version on live!

I'm really excited for the new ult and whole slew of new movement bonus sources (can't wait to try out boots of mobility + BTN + ult ganks). It sounds like he'll fill a much more interesting and engaging role in teamfights.

I know you've mentioned that you haven't looked at Dominion much yet, but I'm pretty worried about how it will function (it really might be a new cheesecake-all-over-the-ceiling tier broken champ). Any chance we can get some word from ManWolfAxeBoss on how it's handling?


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TheDirtySwine

Senior Member

08-17-2013

What if when rengar had full ferocity stacks he could stealth when he ulted. Screw MS