A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Djiimon

Senior Member

08-17-2013

This is just a personal request, but could Rengar get a little easter egg reference to Edgar Allen Poe whenever he reveals a champion classified as undead with his ultimate, since he's hearing a dead man's heart beat.


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slayerr

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I knew something like this would happen. Just stop. You're terrible at it. Leave Rengar alone.
You're making him just another bruiser/tanky/fighter. This is stupid. You're taking away his uniqueness. How come people buy pink wards for Eve and not for Rengar? You clearly don't know what Rengar is all about, so is best if you just leave him alone and let someone else do the job.


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2xOninja

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenrel View Post
Rengar has needed one incredibly obvious change since before he even came out, but instead of doing it, lets just remove Rengar.

reduce the damage of his Q, add a damage buff to his ulti.

BOOM! literally every Rengar problem is now fixed.

backdoor Rengar? cant chunk towers as fast.
Rengar using his ult to run? now he needs it to kill.
Rengar too much burst? now his "all in" isn't just Q
So he has to ult to get a kill in lane?


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Taint Misbehavin

Senior Member

08-17-2013

hate to sound like a dick, but i really wish Scarizard would stop touching champs i like(d).


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3mptylord

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I don't think that Bonetooth Necklace will ever feel good on laners because they lack the potential for early-mid game stacks. The brush-speed and leap-range are both strong perks for laners, they just won't have the opportunity to get them. Whereas junglers can get 4-5 stacks in their first wave of ganks, in best-case scenarios. The issue is with gaining trophies - not the effects that it grants.

You could encourage the lane-Rengar to invade the enemy jungle, but having the enemy Blue and Red buff grant trophies. Given the lack of the necklace at level-1, this doesn't unnecessarily relegraph Rengar's level-1 plan. The 20% increased damage to monsters would more than be enough for a sneaky lane-Rengar to claim an extra trophy, and he might even get a sneaky kill on their jungler!

Also, with regards to skill-shot-E - please tell me that Empowered Bola strike is now a ground-covering net that snares everyone in a circle? That would just be beautiful. :3

Also, does his new Bola Strike collide only with champions and neutral monsters - or minions to? I mean, I'm sure your internal testing guys are fair in their criticisms, but the issue with colliding skill shots on fighter champions is that in a melee-vs-melee lane, there's not really an opportune time to use it. I actually can't think of any examples of a colliding skill shot on a fighter/melee-top (Jayce is technically ranged when he has one, and to be honest, he's a bad example anyway).

P.S. You really should have saved this "grand unveiling" for the PBE release. Most people won't just take your word for it about the ultimate change - they have to play it for themselves. Please don't be disheartened though - Katarina's rework was hated leading up to and for a month after her re-release. People read the numbers and don't appreciate the gameplay difference until they actually man up and try it.


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

08-17-2013

so let me get this straight. as an ULTIMATE he gets a movespeed buff and his bush leap passive for one time? i'm sorry but many champs have those things as a PASSIVE. Warwick's passive W gives him and the team vision of low health enemies and gives him a 40% movespeed bonus. OH BY THE WAY...you mentioned rengar can make it from bot bush top mid river? well i don't know if you know this but...uh...the entire jungle path is usually well warded so good luck trying to wait for a gank when they can see you coming.

so all in all let me summarize

1. Q damage nerfed
2. W durability taken out
3. E skillshot randomness
4. R useless gimmicky ultimate
5. Bonetooth utterly useless mid game and beyond...utterly.....useless

I really thought you would have improved rengar and solved his core issues and instead you nerfed his damage, nerfed his durability, changed his type, changed his theme, and are making us think that they're 'good' when most people here know they're terrible changes.

you know what you can do to actually make this work? make his **** ult you gave him and make it a toggle or an EXTREMELY low cooldown. im talking like 15s or less.


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Taint Misbehavin

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mlg360Headshots View Post
Rengar is simply not a Jungler...
If a big-ass Lion-man isn't a jungler, don't you think there's something incredibly wrong with that picture?

other than that, i agree with most of what you said.


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-17-2013

Please stop making him so dependant on bushes. Also now that E is a skillshot, we cannot harass people in lane anymore. This is a huge problem. There is no way for us to trade/poke people who would straight up beat us in a fight such as Darius, Riven and Jax.


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Nielspeterdejong

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Dear Scarizard,

First of all I wanted to thank you for all the effort your making for our beloved knifecat. I'm sorry you've been receiving a bit of heat on this forum, but by your reactions I can clearly tell that your devoted to making him fun and competetive again, and as a big fan of the knifecat I"m really happy that your the one working on him.

As for the reactions, while some were a bit overboard and unfair, I do think that I agree with some of their points to a degree. Therefor I'd like to give my own personal input in Rengar and his changes, and I hope that they might help you with further tuning down the rework.

Q: First of all his Q, I like the idea of the empowered Q train, and how it will deal damage nicely. I hope you're still keeping his AS intact, but I like the idea that it gives some more damage output seeing as an assassin type it's his main damage ability, and it's also melee.

W: I'm not sure how big the AD debuff is, but I hope that with such a short duration it will be greatly noticible, seeing as late game ADC's completely destroy everything. Right now I did like the armor and MR buffs, since Rengar was unique at that he was a tanky assassin, and I"d like it if we could keep it that way. What I didn't like about the current Rengar is that the normal and empowered W both have the same buff and it doesn't stack. If you're going through with the AD reduction, then why not add a different effect to his empowered W instead of just another AD reduction?

What I don't like about W is that people only use it to heal themselves up with it, and always use Q in combat because their still assassins. Why not a buff to the empowered W that gives a big resistant against being focussed down? Like I mentioned, some people like building Rengar tanky, and you did say you wanted scaling empowered abilities so that people will choose which option they think is the best for the situation. For instance, your team is in a teamfight, but you need to jump in and direct fire from squishy teammates. using this empowered W would not only heal you, but it would make you very highly resistant to physical and magic damage for a very short time. Say it would last 4 seconds, and for that time you would have scaling physical and magic resist depending on the level, kinda like Alistar his ultimate, but then with 5 hard earned stacks of ferocity and for a very short time. like around 20-30% physical and magical reduction at lower levels, up to 60-70% physical and magical reduction at higher levels. I know this may sound like a big buff, but it's only for a 4 second intervall, and it allows players to choose which empowered ability is more effective: The empowered Q to take down their adc fast? Or the empowered W to give you 4 seconds of burst down resistance as you take the heat while your teammates are able to get away safely/stay alive long enough to take down their carries. Keep the heal there since that way it'll give him his sustain (along with the buffs to his basic stats I hope), but let the empowered roar instead of the AD reduction now give the anti - "I'm a mage lol and now I focus you down because you have no magic resist lolol" this allows his normal W to protect against AD, and his empowered Q to protect against bursting magic users (and some physical attack nukers). Like I said, it's just 4 seconds for a empowered ability, but it will give him just those few more seconds to live.

E: Well I like the idea of giving it more power and ranged, and I wouldn't be against skillshots (love those ) Butt.. the problem in regards to rengar (and which people have already pointed down), is that the reason why his laning face was so good with it, was because it allowed him to harrass both the minions and the players at the same time, and build up ferocity. If you're making it a skill shot, and it can hit minions, then it's useless as a poke against the top laner, especially if he's ranged, and even if he's melee. Now I can slow singed as he's rushing at me, while it only takes one minion to stop that skill shot with the change to accidently be in front of him and catch it, letting Singed pick me up and destroy me because I no longer have magic resist on w. If you're making it a skillshot and it can only hit the champion then you can't build up ferocity at a safe distance from minions anymore. Trust me, as a melee he needs to build up that ferocity to heal himself after a bad trade. He can't move in as melee and use a vampiric scepter to heal himself if there is a good ranged poker against him.

I actually have an idea to solve this, while keeping it a skillshot and increasing the range (I do like the option to increase the range). Why not let the bola's move along the line of the skillshot through minions and damage them? And whenever he hits a champion it stops and it damages and slows the champion? (with ofcourse the maximum amount of ferocity you can get with this ability per shot is 1). That way you can throw your bola's to an opponent without having to hit a minion (in top lane, they're always behind the minions), yet still allow the enemy champion to be able to evade the skill shot, thus letting it remain a skill shot. Just one that also damages minions along it's path, and lets you build up ferocity that way. Thus getting the best from both worlds. You can let it deal less damage as it passes through and damages minions though, like 15% to a minimum of 40%? in order to still keep the range and also increase the damage (Rengar needs a strong poke, so I hope you'll buff up the E damage).

As for the empowered version, why not make the skill shot line broader, and let that empowered version pass through champions and slowing them without it stopping when it hits a champion? That way it's a skillshot, and it promotes people to practice with it to try and ensnare as many enemies as possible. And let the ensnare duration be 1.5 seconds or something, with a 1.5 second following slow. That way he will think more about using empowered E instead of empowered Q, and it will be a more viable choice to go with emp. E instead of emp. Q.

R: And now R. First of all I kinda sorta agree with saying that you shouldn't let it rest on a pop culture reference.. but that said, I do have to agree with the fans on this one. The whole predator and invisibility thing was pretty cool, and it distinguished him from other champions. It sorta gave him his identity and make him interesting, and fun to play. We don't want another boring bruiser, we would like to go with that original idea, keeping his stealth, but then let players know when he can see them. I know that this may not be handy since then players can fall back and everything, and stealth can be avoided with towers and pink wards. But I'd like to have the R like you proposed, but then keep the stealth and let enemy players be alerted when he can see them. The stealth has a lot of positive effects, though I agree that 3 second delay in invisibility is a huge frustrating factor. However that said I do agree that the ult with the movement speed and much longer duration and instant movement speed does sound neat, and I think would be more practical in many situations. However when you look at it afterwards, it's still just a big gap closer and movement speed buff, it doesn't feel much like an ultimate. He can still be bursted down easily, it doesn't do anything to his damage, and it feels somewhat of a nerf now. The stealth was very handy for catching enemies offguard, and the buff to the duration while still having stealth would be nice.

Right now I just use it to get away, or build up stacks, or sometimes chase down. I want to feel a bit more power into it, make it stronger. Yet I"m not sure if just making him buff in gap closer and speed and removing the stealth is a good idea.. it would just make him a boring champion, since his stealth (he was a tanky assassin) was what made him who he is. Given, I didn't find that much use for the stealth due to the short duration, but I do have an idea that I'd want to propose: Why not make his stealth ultimate something more unique? Like the predator kinda lion that jumps on prey and is rewarded for big risks like Akali? Akali is a burst yet has a invisibility bubble. She destroys you (is unstopable when fed), and it annoys me how such a high burst champion has such big survivability. You can call this a "high skill factor", but it's just making a bubble and flashing moving around in bushes. You have to buy the oracle's Elixer, but that puts you behind on the item builds while only showing her for 5 minutes, against just one champion. And this is just her normal ability. Why not let the effect continue when he attacks, but like akali he shortly becomes visible and dissapears again after a few seconds when not attacking, like Akali when she's in her bubble. I know this may sound powerfull, but it would be very cool! Like, go with stealth entirely, let him be that invisible predator that moves around, kills stuff, and as long as the duration hasn't expired, lets him become invisible again after a few seconds which can be delayed by receiving damage. You will see a warning when he can see you or is near, but you know that if you don't get out of there fast, he will jump you, destroy you, and then go invisible again if you don't work together well with your teammates. To give that predator feel into him. And even if they buy those potions at higher level, he will still have the speed buff which you mentioned and the detection for scouting, thus making him still viable at a higher level despite the see invisibility. So say his stealth last for 15 seconds (EXAMPLE!) with the bonetooth necklace buff. For 15 seconds you can jump on lone enemies and destroy them while the effects still channel, yet become visible when attacking and for a few seconds afterwards when not attacking (more then 1 second and the 3 second delay), but if timed right you can get a kill, and then get away if you make sure your not hit and go in stealth again. This can all happen in those 15 seconds.

Bonetooth necklace: Also in regards to the new bonetooth necklace, it feels very very weak to me I"m afraid. I like the gimmicks, but I'd also have seen a bit more power in those gimmicks. Though what I really would like to see was that more stacks would make the empowered abilities stronger as well. Like, make the now lvl 14 at lvl 12, and then let the lvl 14 add some sort of buff to his empowered abilities, allowing him to carry late game if he has performed well. Or better yet, let his bonetooth necklace be upgradable What I hate about it now is that it just takes up space at higher levels, and people at that level always replace it. Why not give people the option to choose several upgrades for it, depending on how the game is progressing? say you feel you need more tanky, then they can buy a certain tanky item, and then combine that in a upgraded bonetooth necklace. Or if they need more adc then let them buy an certain dps item, and allow that to be upgraded into the bonetooth necklace. Thus letting the bonetooth necklace be viable at higher levels (perhaps even let lets you upgrade all those extra items together as well so that if you carry enough and have enough gold you get rewarded by allowing you to make it a item that has a lot of stats? Since you did mention you wanted the normal bonetooth necklace to have little stats, and this will allow the player to upgrade it with more stats themselves of their choosing. Based on a limited number of items ofcourse)

I know this is a big log of text, and you ofcourse have other people you want to read the comments of as well. But I would really really apprecaite it if you could read this and then get back to me about what you think about the ideas They're not set in stone, but I would love to see something like this, and I think something along those lines would be awesome for our beloved knifecat ^^


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielspeterdejong View Post
E: Well I like the idea of giving it more power and ranged, and I wouldn't be against skillshots (love those ) Butt.. the problem in regards to rengar (and which people have already pointed down), is that the reason why his laning face was so good with it, was because it allowed him to harrass both the minions and the players at the same time, and build up ferocity. If you're making it a skill shot, and it can hit minions, then it's useless as a poke against the top laner, especially if he's ranged, and even if he's melee.
Thank you for pointing this out. I hate the idea of E being a skillshot.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ate_on_rengar/

Read the comments, Riot. We are sad

EDIT: How amusing. All of his posts are getting downvoted now.

Yknow, what's amazing to me is that they chose the most random champion to nerf into Olaf-state. They didn't nerf Elise (lol % damage), they didn't nerf Thresh, not Vayne, even J4 I MIGHT understand, but they just nerfed the most iconic and fun champ in the game and made him boring as **** and remove all fun aspects from him.