A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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NVDax

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
dear god no. Did you guys really have to remove stealth? That's so dumb,


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Dredge Mammus

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
One thing: I ignored Cho's E from the calculation of damage compared to Ahri, as it was too hard to calculate (do I auto every spell cast? What?)



No. Seriously, they should not be able to do this assuming both are full build, as even in S3, a tank is still very hard to kill-- especially how I run my 5k Health Cho. Unless you are under a tower, there is a general triangle rule.

Assassins > Carries > Tanks

Ignoring bruisers as they are a weird spot between Assassins, Tanks and Carries.

Yes, there are naturally variables. However, assuming full build, full health, both summoners and others, Assassin's should not be able to 1v1 a tank. This does not mean they CANNOT 1v1 a tank. There are many situations where I have actually been killed by assassins-- specifically Zed, Kha'zix and Lee Sin, because they outplayed me.

The fact that Rengar's full load took me down to nearly half health, and his sustained DPS managed take me down to 1/4 by the end of it (still a lot of health ultimately), is a sign that there is something wrong. I do not blame it on the stealth, but rather the fact Rengar will always get off the first shot on you.


First off, sorry if I was not clear. Yes, though the statement implies that the carry has oracles (and at 6-item full build, why shouldn't he?), but intent was that support/tank has it. Usually, I see carries at my division and the division of my Diamond 1 friend (A Horny Kitty), get one of the following:

Randuin's Omen if they need to survive attack damage
Frozen Mallet if they need to kite or chase (rarely do I see this)
Guardian Angel if they know they are going to get burst down by a burst mage
Banshee's Veil if there is some sort of high threat spell (Hooks)

either way, If you build Assassin Rengar-- 300 AD, lets say, you get roughly Leap, Empowered Q, auto, Q, auto.

So, AD * 5 + 300 bonus damage + 300% AD. 2700 damage in roughtly the course of 1.5 seconds.

Very rarely will you ever see an AD Carry hit this much HP.

I don't think the damage is the issue. I think it is the fact that unless you have a tremendous internet advantage and very good reflexes, you will lose the first hit. This is the problem with the stealth mechanic.

At least without stealth, the enemy can fight back. He can still do the same burst, but now that I know he is coming, I can try and figure out a way to outplay him.

Frankly, even if he did gt damage incrased on his Q, I wouldn't be complaining. Or if his stealth had a reveal upon leap, rather than mid leap.

I understand why you don't like the changes. I just feel people are overreacting with 'it ruins his identity,' since I feel that the thing that makes him Rengar, is his leap. His entire kit is based around it, hence why his ult would make you leap.

It is one of the coolest passives in the game in my opinion, along with the revenge passives.
I'll respond to this one since I happened to see it come up before I closed the forum.

I would love for tanks to counter assassins, but you assumed that both were built the same. If a Rammus has Randuins Omen/Frozen Heart/Ninja Tabi for armor items and was 1v1ing a Rengar, of course the Rammus should win. However, I read (or thought I read, I'm tired and may be seeing things) that both Cho'gath and Ahri had 500 AP. If Cho'gath was built SPECIFICALLY to take on an assassin 1v1, yes, he should win. But if he's built to be an overall general tank without much damage, an assassin should be able to take him on and win (even if it takes longer than it normally would vs fighting a squishy).

In response to the second, I hate to bring up current numbers, but he shouldn't be able to cause over 2500 damage instantly. I have already stated that the triple Q thing shouldn't exist, nor should ever have. That may be part of the reason. I would love to make more counter arguments, but I only have so much knowledge about a character I haven't played enough to give perfect anaylsis.

As I said for my previous closer, I am more of a bruiser/tank kind of player. My responses may be wrong, but this is all based on my experiences. Rengar does need some changes, but this isn't what I believe should be done. And I will continue to stubbornly think this until Scarizard gives me a detailed response as to WHY they want to remove one of his bigger appeals.

Edit: Will be logging off for now. If any of you value my opinion, I'll browse through the thread when I wake up tommorow and I'll try and give my honest belief on them.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
"ITS NOT ABOUT THE STEALTH! ITS ABOUT SENDING A MESSAGE!"

Ok enough Joker references. What i mean by this is Aesthetics. Rengar has always been tailored a homage to the predator, while this change may better for him powerwise, it ruins his image, and feel.

I was really looking forward to trying out the Stealth+warning system, Letting the enemy know they are screwed moments before you gut them would have made for a great predator feel.


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Resets for Noxus

Member

08-17-2013

F*ck Riot
There, I said it.


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Vasey

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Rengar needs his Bola to be his main source of damage, his Q needs to be a passive ability, but something to activate for ferocity stacks.


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Hasan

Senior Member

08-17-2013

You guys removed stealth ? wtf ??????


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BeyondGodlike

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Scarizard is a new Morello. Everybody cower in fear as he destroys our niche champions in favor of generic mechanics for the sake of counterplay in bronze elo!


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Engy

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Making Bola Strike a skillshot is the worst decision.

How exactly does Rengar intended to jump on somebody who zone him and hide behind minions? Jumping on such character (especially if against a mage) is a sure way to die.

Rengar does not have mobility like Kha'Zix or Lee Sin, he cannot afford to leap "somewhere" and then shoot use his Void Spikes to slow somebody down, he cannot also wardjump and then throw his Q to evade minions/jungle creeps around.

It also further punish his combo system: He is meant to actually land his moves without fail. You don't base a 5-point combo and then gives the ability to the player to utterly waste it like that when he's balanced around that idea. You intended to root this target? Good luck hitting Bola Strike through minions.

Bola Strike is also Rengar's only ability to actually slow down a target since if you are fighting in the open, the only way for your to catch up is your ult.

On the other hand, if Bola Strike only happen to hit champions, this is gonna be a major damage loss in the jungle.

Even with a "damage/range increase", both of these are still gonna be minor compared to the loss of making sure your combo actually happen.

You already decreased damage on Q so that it would take longer to dish out damage, then you remove his stealth, reduce bonus AD on Bonetooth... And now you makes Bola Strike a skillshot, which further reduce his chance of properly executing a 5-point ferocity combo?

I didn't mind the lower Q damage, the removal of stealth and reduced stats on Bonetooth Necklace... And you now also attack Bola Strike?

On the other hand, the Thrill of the Hunt change is fine, and depend on the point of view; sneaking in vs. pursuing while tracking a target, or preparing an assassination through the true vision. A lower cooldown will also further increase the counters against stealth champions.. But this might still cost Rengar's ability to jump into a fight.

Please, rethink this decision of making Bola Strike a skillshot.


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Carry Poppins

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Recruiter

08-17-2013

Thank you for your continual hard work.


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Killawar

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post

2. Unlikely that we'd go with this - it doesn't take very much time for him to generate his ferocity while in R, and the duration of it is so long already (12-18s base currently, with the potential to get all the way up to 28 seconds!) that we really want you to relish the feeling of hunting and stalking, since you'll have vision all this time. If you really need to Rocket-boost before your Fury is generated fully, it's likely that it's more important you make it to your target rather than have full ferocity when you get there (it's also more likely you'll still have a few points built up once you get there, so this hasn't been a particular worry).
I'm not too sure I'm entirely convinced about the ult not having stealth any more. I feel like we're kinda gutting the cat and just putting band-aids on.

If you guys REALLY hate the true stealth on his ult, maybe do some bush interactions like maybe once in brush/exiting bush for a few seconds he's got some sort of Eve stealth mechanic (while his ult is on of course), but when out of brush it remains what you guys have wanted to change it to!

I don't know, just an opinion. Being a predatory cat-person would seem like using the bush in every opportune moment you could should have some sort of advantage, even if you have ult on.

Just my two cents, hope you see it.