A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Samuel L Jaxx

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liracy View Post
Trundle wasn't a rework, he was a visual update with new names on the same skills. His Q got a slow, is that a remake now? /facepalm.
Also includes lore rework.


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Azzazin Nation

Senior Member

08-17-2013

wow riot really.. no stealth? just delete the champion hes just another generic bruiser-assasin that spams q for damage no fun at all or uniquness.


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Absolute None

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG Joker View Post
i dont get what you people want, if rengar is ever going to get any sort of buff or ever be made viable, he cant appear out of nowhere and kill someone, its really that simple its just not good for a game to have a burst champion that the second you see is already done with his burst, no other burster does that and no burster should
That's what makes him unique. God forbid uniqueness, let's all just perfectly fit the mold.
Rengar is enticing because he can jump at you. That's what he does, that's what he should do. He's the Pridestalker, he's a hunter.

Also, his burst isn't instant. He needs to auto attack multiple times, and unless he has a Sword of the Divine/a ton of attack speed items, it will take at least 2-3 seconds to fully unleash it. And Kha'zix can do this burst to you 1v1 without even using his ultimate.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
Oh no, a champion built to 1v1 is killing you. Oh, you poor thing.
An assasin's job is to take care of 1 person on your team. Some are good at taking squishies. Some are good at busting tanks.
No assassin should be capable of 1v1, as they have lower base damages and require to build damage to surpass tanks. If tanks build the same items as carries of their scaling type, they will almost always out burst an Assassin.

Comparison: Cho with 500 AP will deal 2430 damage, and Ahri deal 2660 before mitigation. Of their damage, 1000 of cho's is True, while 302.5 is Ahri's. On a target of 100 MR (50% reduction), 715 + 1000 True Damage on Cho, 1178.5 + 302.5 True damage on Ahri.

final numbers: Cho deals 1715, and Ahri deals 1481 damage.

With 120 bonus AD, Rengar deals an almost instant 1400 damage, and will continue to deal high for four seconds (at 1.5 AS, this means 1320 damage before the AS buff expires). In addition, he has two other skills. With 25% CDR, you have a .5 second downtime on Q's AS buff. Ad you have two spells.

That means within a 5 second trade, he will deal 1824 damage from skills, plus
his autos.

He should not be able to 1v1 a full build Cho'gath, with only two damage items. No Assassin should be able to.

Quote:
Some are built to clean a fight up. Rengar, after the AP Rengar nerfs, was played as an assassin. They nerfed this. Then people played him as a split push tank. They nerfed this. Now he's played as a situtational burst assassin/split pusher.
Rengar's original design was to fight you and kill you. He did this. Now he's a "poke them with bolas until they are low enough to burst".
And? If your complaint is removal of stealth will homogenize him, then you are a little late. He already is homogenized by GD standards.

Quote:
You say 500 gold in Vision Wards, but you pretty much pay this for Eve right now when she jungles. Are you saying Riot should nerf her more as well?
You can actually see Eve coming close to you. In addition, because her stealth is a passive, you can counter her with green wards and proper ward placement in the jungle, unlike Rengar who you either a) Need to see him ult and high tail it, or b) but pink wards and place them everywhere. Unlike Twitch and Eve, they cannot 100-0 anyone on their choice. Imagine if you gave Veigar stealth of this level so he could freely combo his targets when they could not react.

Quote:
Rengar has counterplay, and that's having good intuition about when/who he is jumping on, and then CCing him the minute he jumps in. As Cho'gath, you can Q right on your carry and he gets knocked up mid jump.
He will usually jump your carry. And when he does, they are dead. And because Oracle's is exactly the same range as leap (technically shorter because Oracles starts from center, and leap is an auto attack), you cannot react fast enough late game, as he will kill them.


Quote:
About Eve, they made her strong, and now she can only jungle with one build (that being Lizard Elder). You don't see any more AP Eve mids because they butchered her.
I still see AP Eve mid. So do a lot of people. Ignite is still taken 22.9% of the time in ranked.

And if you are seriously saying that Eve 100-0 the entire team was good, then you really shouldn't be talking champ balance.

EDIT: I said tanks should out DPS an Assassin, which is not entirely true. Some Assasin's do out DPS tanks of the same scaling type because they have lower cooldowns.

I should have said outburst-- as in one full rotation.


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The Toad

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
Rengar gets revealed at the start of the jump instead of when he's about to land (if it's already like this, I'm an idiot and haven't played Rengar in a while, apologies). Counterplay added.
I believe the way it is on live is that he's revealed halfway through the jump. Again, revealing at the start of the jump would only add a split-second of more reaction time. That's certainly a lot given many decisions and actions can be made in split seconds, but a little more reaction time is apparently needed.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
I'm not going to go out of my way to defend stealth, I know its too abuseable and/or binary.

However, I WILL defend the heck out of 100-0 burst, especially if stealth is no longer in the picture.
You can't call a champion that lacks quick 100-0 capacity a proper assassin, because they won't be able to actually assassinate anything in a fight.

I am perfectly ok with the only counterplay to burst assassins being to keep them out of striking range or staying behind your team.

Hopefully Rengar will still maintain the extremely dangerous feel of a jungle monster that jumps out of the brush and rips your throat out after these changes.
To a larget degree, I am on your side. There's a middle ground somewhere for assassins, but it's difficult to find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
AFAIK, the triple Q thing is supposed to be a glitch. If completely fixing that would stop this dreadful rework, I would be perfectly fine. I am also fine with removing the defense on his roar, since he was supposed to be an assasin anyway and tank stats on assassins is dumb. However, there are a ton of things that don't have much counterplay.
So removing Triple Q guts rengar. It's his last thread to instagib burst, and if he can't kill targets in triple Q + 1-2 autos then he's left with the matchup deciding who wins (and aside from squishies being so squishy, a large majority of the cast wins duels against rengar). It would make him balanced, but also boring because he can't actually do what people want him to do (assassinate from stealth).


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Averforge

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
That's what makes him unique. God forbid uniqueness, let's all just perfectly fit the mold.
Rengar is enticing because he can jump at you. That's what he does, that's what he should do. He's the Pridestalker, he's a hunter.

Also, his burst isn't instant. He needs to auto attack multiple times, and unless he has a Sword of the Divine/a ton of attack speed items, it will take at least 2-3 seconds to fully unleash it. And Kha'zix can do this burst to you 1v1 without even using his ultimate.
unique is fine but flat out killing one person and giving them no chance of rebuttal unless they are extremely quick with reactions is not something that should be happening, i dont feel like getting in an argument since honestly what i said is just an opinion and im to thickheaded for it to change but i was hoping more people realized that they could add something to him that makes him unique but it cant be stealth burst, it just shouldnt work, and just to make sure everyone understands im 100 percent fine with rengar killing me instantly, but i want it to be because i was overextended or because i made a mistake or hes just that far out ahead of me, not because he can come out of nowhere at any time when im not expecting it and need pink wards in every corner of my lane or risk being instagibed for not massing pinks


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Explosionary

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I really like the idea of him getting a jump off of empowered bola. The reason i like the idea of this is because as a Rengar player I hate the feeling of being useless outside of the jungle and my ult. I don't know exactly what you would have to do to balance this because having a snare + gap closer in 1 ability sounds really strong. Though i do have two ideas.

1: take the damage off bola.

this would make it more utility and much more viable to have a jump with. it would also allow for more damage on Rengar's kit to be placed on his Q's which is what everyone wants. This would turn his ganks into a elise/lee sin hybrid : P

2: take the snare off empowered bola.

This would make his ganks weaker/stronger depending on who you're ganking. You would be giving up hard cc for more mobility and chase potential but that's what i love about Rengar is the chase. you wouldn't be out of cc because you would still have a slow(so no Shyvana status ganks)but w/o the snare your lane opponent wouldn't be shutdown from all escape(particularly level one) with a snare burst combo from level 2 Rengar and lane opponent.

I really hope you read this and reply with a "this is a great idea" or "this is bad/broken/op" then tell me why it would be bad/broken/op because I would really like to know your thoughts on this, because like I said, I REALLY like the idea of another way to jump on people without being in a bush or ulting.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
Also, his burst isn't instant. He needs to auto attack multiple times, and unless he has a Sword of the Divine/a ton of attack speed items, it will take at least 2-3 seconds to fully unleash it. And Kha'zix can do this burst to you 1v1 without even using his ultimate.
It is effectively instant.

Prep Q and leap in, and Q again. Or, leap, QautoQ. The delay between the attacks is so fast it is comparable to old Hate Spike.


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Raincall

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
Well, I must be misinformed, since I've read some Rioters saying that shouldn't have ever existed.
Just like stealth? that doesn't imply it's a glitch.