A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Gespens

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
On a side note, Rengar won't be an assassin after this. He won't be able to burst anyone. He'll be a fighter/bruiser.
But from what has been said-- since we seem to be taking things at face value, Rengar's burst has actually gone up.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Dredge Mammus View Post
I'm not a master Rengar, so forgive me if I misunderstand this. Rengar's burst revolves around getting auto attacks on his opponent fast. Zed's burst comes from a mixture of abilities and auto attacks. You can see Zed coming, you can react, but how instant is it compared to Rengar? Zed's burst takes approximately 3-5 seconds to come out. It typically does enough to instantly kill any non-tank. Rengar's burst takes 2-3 seconds to come out. It typcially does enough damage to kill a squishy. Zed can then escape. Rengar is stranded in what may be 1-4 enemies that can potentially kill him. Playing assassins is a gamble. You take a risk to get a reward. You kill a carry or you die trying.
All this comes down to is Riot hating the idea that assassins should be able to kill someone instantly. That's why burst mages have been nerfed, and assassins are starting to fall under that trend. They did it to Akali, they did it to LeBlanc, they did it to Evelynn, and now they're doing it to Rengar.

On a side note, Rengar won't be an assassin after this. He won't be able to burst anyone. He'll be a fighter/bruiser.
This is a pretty good summary. There's a bigger underlying philosophy I'm still mulling over how to explain in detail, though I understand the principles behind it. Basically, an action that you take needs to have a sensible response to at least give you a chance to fight back. It's a PvP game and both sides need to have things to do, "I do X!" "Well... okay. I guess I lose" is not really conducive to a fun environment.

And Rengar functions by building and using triple Qs (4 stacks -> ult -> immediately feroc q while in ult -> wait till 4 stacks again -> jump on someone mash Q), which means you drop 450 +500% AD nearly instantly, then slow the target and have a ton of bonus AS + defense steroids so the target can't feasibly fight back unless he won the pick lottery and is a counter to Rengar.


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Your Shadow

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
Honestly, I like New Karma.

Hate me if you must.
Honestly, Blarma would be completely fine if she was a separate character, rather than Karma's replacement.

The problem with her, is Riot basically just deleted a champion with a dedicated, albeit small, fanbase and then gave them a champion with a different kit, different thematic elements, different aethestics and a different personality and said, "It's the same character".

No it's NOT the same character! Blarma can stay, but we miss the real Karma and want her back!

If you take away Rengar's stealth, it'll have a similar effect. Less severe, but still there.

It doesn't matter how viable, balanced or "healthy" he is, without his stealth, it's not Rengar.


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Needles K

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
I can sum up the complaints about new karma in 4 words:

It's Not Old Karma
That's close, but not quite it. The complaint is deeper than that. Old Karma had a very unusual set of abilities with a unique playstyle and a distinctive theme. The new Karma is a very generic character. You might enjoy her, but you probably enjoy the many very similar champions too. For people who liked the old Karma, there is no substitute.


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Nandig

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Removing stealth from his ult feels to me like removing stealth from Evelynn... I like/don't care about most of the changes but don't touch his stealth ffs! It's what made his ganks strong and allowed him to hunt enemies who went too far from their team... Or if you want to completely change champion that i bought, give me back my 6k IP!

That 1 stupid change completely breaks his playstyle.


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Liracy

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
"In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy."

This alone tells me you've little idea how to even play Rengar. His ultimate was to go IN on the enemy ADC and smash him to pieces, or to gank a lane, or to get the jump on someone. One that worked with his overall theme.

Now Rengar runs fast and has one gap closer. OH and if you manage 14 stacks on your bonetooth you can move faster through bushes. OMG! OP!

This is why I frown every single time I hear "rework" because when you rework it is almost ALWAYS a nerf, and almost ALWAYS changes the core of the character. Then, whats worse riot? You dont even ****ing listen when we're unhappy with it, not one bit. Downvotes don't mean ****. Our comments mean even less. You disregard the ones who don't agree and quote the ones who do, then move on like you've made a difference.

Honestly? Between the failed Karma rework. The FAILED Kat rework. The FAILED Yi rework. The FAILED Sej rework.

Its like, have you guys ever reworked a champ and not failed?

You always overtune, or just turn it into something worse than what we had in the first place, its either OP as hell, or more useless than it was to begin with. I am so ****ing tired of this nonsense. Yea, you're always going to find those players that will suck your dicks no matter what changes you make. Then you have the people with brains.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Loss of stealth will make me sad, as it really changes how I like to use Rengar, but I will reserve judgement for when I actually try out the kit.
Half, I just wanna point out that unless your enemies were morons, you'd get nearly perma-sweepered and effectively only have out of combat stealth. Which is kind of silly and useless.


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Dredge Mammus

Senior Member

08-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
Rengar's issue isn't that he is an assassin, it is that he can do way too much damage while still being absurdly tanky and having many survivability tools. My favorite third favorite champion in the game, is Cho and I always end the game with over 5k HP. The fact that Rengar, with only three damage items can nearly 1v1, is absurd, when other AD Assassins who build more damage to do damage, cannot. I eat Zeds, Kha'zixs, Lee Sins, all for breakfast. Rengar comes out of nowhere unless I invest over 500 gold in pink wards to ward all my choke points, and will chunk me instantly for over half my health.

I have 250 armor. Even with over half of that ignored, he still should not deal that much, when no other Assassin barring an Eve with over 500 AP, DFG and void staff, can.

they are not changing his damage, they are making it so that if you can actually react to him. From what I can tell, this was toyed with for a long time.

And yes, Eve was broken as **** before they nerfed her ultimate to do % Current HP. Having her burst entire teams down and 1v4 because of the shield was stupid.
Oh no, a champion built to 1v1 is killing you. Oh, you poor thing.
An assasin's job is to take care of 1 person on your team. Some are good at taking squishies. Some are good at busting tanks. Some are built to clean a fight up. Rengar, after the AP Rengar nerfs, was played as an assassin. They nerfed this. Then people played him as a split push tank. They nerfed this. Now he's played as a situtational burst assassin/split pusher.
Rengar's original design was to fight you and kill you. He did this. Now he's a "poke them with bolas until they are low enough to burst".
You say 500 gold in Vision Wards, but you pretty much pay this for Eve right now when she jungles. Are you saying Riot should nerf her more as well?
Rengar has counterplay, and that's having good intuition about when/who he is jumping on, and then CCing him the minute he jumps in. As Cho'gath, you can Q right on your carry and he gets knocked up mid jump.
About Eve, they made her strong, and now she can only jungle with one build (that being Lizard Elder). You don't see any more AP Eve mids because they butchered her.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Shadow View Post
Honestly, Blarma would be completely fine if she was a separate character than Karma's replacement.

The problem with her, is Riot basically just deleted a champion with a dedicated, albeit small, fanbase and then gave them a champion with a different kit, different thematic elements, different aethestics and a different personality and said, "It's the same character".

Not it's NOT the same character! Blarma can stay, but we miss the real Karma and want her back!

If you take away Rengar's stealth, it'll have a similar effect. Less severe, but still there.

It doesn't matter how viable, balanced or "healthy" he is, without his stealth, it's not Rengar.
Would you rather remove the leap?

the stealth is something that enhances his identity, not something that makes it.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Honestly, I'm ok with insta-gib levels of burst, if you can still counterplay by positioning/cc BEFORE the burst hits.

Talon is a pretty good example of this: if he gets to a squishy, that squishy is going to turn into a puddle of blood if Talon is left unhindered, but it is REALLY difficult for a Talon to get to his targets when fighting against a competent team with a reasonably good teamcomp.

It's a different type of counterplay, but still counterplay nonetheless, and it adds a nice flavor and intensity to the positioning war.