A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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orghak 6

Member

08-16-2013

"The stealth removal is not final"

Bookmark this post mate.

Because I won't hesitate to call you out.


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Gonna give another post before i finish for the night since it's late -

A few thoughts:

Firstly, a personal one. I'm not -hiding- from any of you guys because i stopped posted an hour after i posted the changes. I just left the office because work was over and i had plans. It happens to be Friday, and i'm a human being - so i went to see the 'All Random, All Mediums' Art Show with non-league pieces auctioned by the creators of league art themselves. The show was awesome, the art was awesome, the people were awesome.

And i spent 100% of it on my droid reading the forums, taking a break, refreshing the forums. The ride up, the show, the dinner, the ride home. I am not hiding from you. I care what you think. I spend honestly far too much time reading what everyone has to say from the truly unique but maybe hard to balance ideas, to the flatly incorrect, to the constructive feedback, to the rage about anything i do.

I'm being sincere when i say i wish i could just post more and communicate more, and i apologize if i'm never able to meet that threshold of attention that you guys desire, especially when we are working on big changes that you dudes are passionate about.

Second, about Xelnath. Xelnath is a cool dude - he has a ton of experience in design, and despite his crazy 'somedays i'll crash the playtest with my mad scientist ideas' i learn a good bit from him just based on the set of values that he has, even when they clash with what's balanced/balanceable in our game.

We also disagree on a ton of things. Especially on the removal of stealth from Rengar's ultimate. It was something i was trying because the tuning of our previous 'warning' mechanics were leaving much to be desired and not doing a whole ton in the way of counterplay, and he actually really enjoyed it.

This isn't 'Xelnath approved! You all have to like it!' I'd just appreciate people laying off personally attacking him or his play just because he happens to think it's good. Dude plays a ton of Rengar and happens to like the changes. And as for 'You're not a true Rengar player because you used your ultimate one time to run away.' One time he used it to run away, and one time he lived. Am i to believe that anyone in this thread has never once used their ultimates to escape a gank or sticky situation, ever? Are you to believe that anyone is not 'a Rengar player' just because they did? I don't mean to be granular, but it's something i've read a lot in this thread and it seems nonsensical.

Which leads me to the next thought -
It may very well be that the removal of Rengar's stealth is a terrible decision, one that ruins the very fabric of space-time, and if that is so i will not go through with it. I'm not saying 'yep, i've made up my mind!' What i'm saying is over the time i've worked on Rengar (with some changes inherited from Classick), we have tried a lot of things on a lot of abilities. Some of them have even been fun. This is just another change that's trended well in our testing, and while i'll continue to try it, nothing in this thread is final. I'd like a version similar to this to go to PBE so that players who are passionate about it can test and give feedback, but i will always make the best decision for Rengar.

A few misc thoughts -

-28 AD on bonetooth is not final, and is the exact reason i tend to not post numbers. Numbers are inconsequential. Everything about a champion could be buffed 500% if we believe the mechanics are on-point. Bonetooth will have enough AD to compensate. None of these Rengar mechanics are in our competitive balance tests, and as such, aren't really being tuned. We're nailing feel and mechanic direction.

-To the one person some pages back who thought we were taking the slow from Bola Strike, how did you get that idea? I mean this honestly because if i posted something misleading i'd like to correct it. All i said was Bola Strike is getting more range/damage due to being a skillshot.

-All this talk of 'Predator has stealth, Rengar needs it' sounds really silly to me. This is completely outside of the discussion of whether or not Rengar is a good candidate to have stealth on. The argument that 'just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways'. That's not how we make champions, nor will it ever be. The Predator alien is a tech-using alien bounty hunter. Rengar's a lion that uses hand-made tools and lives in the jungle. He has a launch skin based off of the Predator because it seems really cool (and because we knew Kha'Zix was not far off), and they both use heat-seeking vision. Rengar's had a ton of inspirations, from Lion races in other IP's to Hunter characters from other IP's - There are more compelling arguments as to why rengar should have the mechanic, but saying that he needs it because the two characters are similar is something i can't buy
That you can read all of the hate sent towards you and still be able to type this well thought out post astounds me.


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Jbels

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Gonna give another post before i finish for the night since it's late -

A few thoughts:

Firstly, a personal one. I'm not -hiding- from any of you guys because i stopped posted an hour after i posted the changes. I just left the office because work was over and i had plans. It happens to be Friday, and i'm a human being - so i went to see the 'All Random, All Mediums' Art Show with non-league pieces auctioned by the creators of league art themselves. The show was awesome, the art was awesome, the people were awesome.

And i spent 100% of it on my droid reading the forums, taking a break, refreshing the forums. The ride up, the show, the dinner, the ride home. I am not hiding from you. I care what you think. I spend honestly far too much time reading what everyone has to say from the truly unique but maybe hard to balance ideas, to the flatly incorrect, to the constructive feedback, to the rage about anything i do.

I'm being sincere when i say i wish i could just post more and communicate more, and i apologize if i'm never able to meet that threshold of attention that you guys desire, especially when we are working on big changes that you dudes are passionate about.

Second, about Xelnath. Xelnath is a cool dude - he has a ton of experience in design, and despite his crazy 'somedays i'll crash the playtest with my mad scientist ideas' i learn a good bit from him just based on the set of values that he has, even when they clash with what's balanced/balanceable in our game.

We also disagree on a ton of things. Especially on the removal of stealth from Rengar's ultimate. It was something i was trying because the tuning of our previous 'warning' mechanics were leaving much to be desired and not doing a whole ton in the way of counterplay, and he actually really enjoyed it.

This isn't 'Xelnath approved! You all have to like it!' I'd just appreciate people laying off personally attacking him or his play just because he happens to think it's good. Dude plays a ton of Rengar and happens to like the changes. And as for 'You're not a true Rengar player because you used your ultimate one time to run away.' One time he used it to run away, and one time he lived. Am i to believe that anyone in this thread has never once used their ultimates to escape a gank or sticky situation, ever? Are you to believe that anyone is not 'a Rengar player' just because they did? I don't mean to be granular, but it's something i've read a lot in this thread and it seems nonsensical.

Which leads me to the next thought -
It may very well be that the removal of Rengar's stealth is a terrible decision, one that ruins the very fabric of space-time, and if that is so i will not go through with it. I'm not saying 'yep, i've made up my mind!' What i'm saying is over the time i've worked on Rengar (with some changes inherited from Classick), we have tried a lot of things on a lot of abilities. Some of them have even been fun. This is just another change that's trended well in our testing, and while i'll continue to try it, nothing in this thread is final. I'd like a version similar to this to go to PBE so that players who are passionate about it can test and give feedback, but i will always make the best decision for Rengar.

A few misc thoughts -

-28 AD on bonetooth is not final, and is the exact reason i tend to not post numbers. Numbers are inconsequential. Everything about a champion could be buffed 500% if we believe the mechanics are on-point. Bonetooth will have enough AD to compensate. None of these Rengar mechanics are in our competitive balance tests, and as such, aren't really being tuned. We're nailing feel and mechanic direction.

-To the one person some pages back who thought we were taking the slow from Bola Strike, how did you get that idea? I mean this honestly because if i posted something misleading i'd like to correct it. All i said was Bola Strike is getting more range/damage due to being a skillshot.

-All this talk of 'Predator has stealth, Rengar needs it' sounds really silly to me. This is completely outside of the discussion of whether or not Rengar is a good candidate to have stealth on. The argument that 'just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways'. That's not how we make champions, nor will it ever be. The Predator alien is a tech-using alien bounty hunter. Rengar's a lion that uses hand-made tools and lives in the jungle. He has a launch skin based off of the Predator because it seems really cool (and because we knew Kha'Zix was not far off), and they both use heat-seeking vision. Rengar's had a ton of inspirations, from Lion races in other IP's to Hunter characters from other IP's - There are more compelling arguments as to why rengar should have the mechanic, but saying that he needs it because the two characters are similar is something i can't buy
Well everyone, you did it! By caring enough about your champion, you may have just saved him ^_^


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by orghak 6 View Post
"The stealth removal is not final"

Bookmark this post mate.

Because I won't hesitate to call you out.
Saying that it is not final is not the same as saying it's never going to happen.


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Raincall

Senior Member

08-16-2013

This is gonna be Karma 2.0, bruiser version.

So what will make Rengar especial now? I hate it when you don't have any ideas and say 'Oh a steroid will do it'. Steroids are quite boring to watch and play, especially because league already has tons of them. Why can't you think of an idea that brings something new to the game? even the icon over the head was better than this. Just as with Karma you're standardizing Rengar. Needless to say, it hurts league a lot considering champions are becoming different faces of the same gameplay. This game is stale because you don't want anything new (and antifun, toxic, without counterplay, have i said it right?) and this rework proves it.


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Aardison1

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Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-All this talk of 'Predator has stealth, Rengar needs it' sounds really silly to me. This is completely outside of the discussion of whether or not Rengar is a good candidate to have stealth on. The argument that 'just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways'. That's not how we make champions, nor will it ever be. The Predator alien is a tech-using alien bounty hunter. Rengar's a lion that uses hand-made tools and lives in the jungle. He has a launch skin based off of the Predator because it seems really cool (and because we knew Kha'Zix was not far off), and they both use heat-seeking vision. Rengar's had a ton of inspirations, from Lion races in other IP's to Hunter characters from other IP's - There are more compelling arguments as to why rengar should have the mechanic, but saying that he needs it because the two characters are similar is something i can't buy
Just cause you can't buy it doesn't mean that its not important to the rengar lovers. I have bought every stealth based champ you guys have put out and i love the style (i'm not always good at it but i find it fun) since the rework of eve i missed that type of stealth and then rengar came out and his stealth was on his ult and i thought well fine i got it back but i have to use a long cool-down on it that's fine and fair at least i got it back. Now your talking about removing what I and others have perceived as a core part to his predator feel. You may not feel that its a big deal but to us it is. Please tweak other parts of his kit but don't remove the stealth.


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Fae Sorceres

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Good, since I know you're reading all the comments, read this:
I know you're on an agenda, but you're horrible at this. Karma is trash, and I'm fairly certain Rengar will turn out the same way in your hands. Your "balancing" skills are about as good as Blizzard's. Can't fix it? Remove it! I'm glad your idea of "rework" is "homogenized". Why play your Rengar when Singed, Rammus, Master Yi can do it better. Even jungle Singed.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by orghak 6 View Post
"The stealth removal is not final"

Bookmark this post mate.

Because I won't hesitate to call you out.
Call away. I'm not saying that i won't remove stealth if it's right for the kit, i'm saying that as this isn't live (and still won't be for a few patches), it's clearly not final. If it's wrong for the kit, i'll gladly flip the switch and look for other solutions. As for now we'll continue to test realistically about the potential this gives Rengar.


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AFuzzyLion

Member

08-16-2013

I'm a well-experienced rengar player, myself. I've played him since release, through all his changes, and know all his tricks. I'd finally like to voice some concerns now that we finally have a real idea of how he'll be changed.

First, bonetooth was an amazing stat stick. You've kinda neutered it. I don't see me wanting this item at all late game. None of these bonuses are worth losing a real item. And worse, only tiers 2 and 4 help him in combat. 28 ad and a bunch of non-fighting bonuses is not worth the item slot late game.

Second, his ult. Ferocity consumption on cast means he loses his triple Q, but he can do that in a normal rotation now with the new empowered Q. I get that. But one thing that wasn't clear, and i can only assume is that the duration cannot be canceled, and bonuses do not fade. When you leave stealth on live, everything ends. Vision, movement speed, ferocity generation. With the new ult, i assume you mean to make them permanent for the duration. i.e.- Ult lasts 15 seconds, revealing enemies, granting Rengar x% MS, and generating 5 ferocity over the first 3.75 seconds. So long as going in combat does not remove these bonuses, i see nothing wrong with it. Great work. However, if me going in early means i no longer get ferocity, then that hinders this ability greatly. Meaning i have to stay back, not even in stealth, for almost 4 seconds while i get enough ferocity to go in. I'm seriously hoping that isn't the case because i actually really like this skill.

Finally, a quick question. Will the rework fix Rengar's doublecast bug? This has been something that's annoyed me for some time. The most notable Rengar mains in NA abuse it every game. It's disheartening to see them rewarded with attention for using underhanded tactics. I'm certain Riot is aware of it, as Rengar is still banned in LCS.


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MajesticRaven

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

So can we get a Karma discussion page by any chance?

Or is she gone forever?