A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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RYKK888

Recruiter

07-29-2013

Not sure if we ever figured out what to do with the W or not, but I had a suggestion. Since the static +armor/magic resist really just means you spam it as you jump on someone or use it to get ferocity (or the heal), there's not much precise play with the W right now (other than for AP Rengar).

A different idea to the +arm/mr or minus %damage that was mentioned earlier would be to make it a damage-absorbing shield that scales off AD, similar to Riven's. Shields offer much higher skillcaps for plays you can pull off (absorb skillshots, survive ignite, etc.), and for newer people they can still just spam it right before jumping on someone. Maybe the empowered version could be a stronger shield or keep the heal component. This would help both lane and jungle Rengar, and would give him even more flexibility/options for kiting, duels, and assassination/escapes.

Just an idea; let me know what you think.


As far as Rengar's current live ult not having any counterplay, um, vision wards and oracles pretty much counter it in any teamfight. I do like the direction his ult is going now though (with the area or global VO and increased MS).


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Darklightning

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I dig VO as our solution, but a couple of reservations about Global VO -

1. The effect isn't global. TF reveals Globally, Nocturne removes sight Globally, but Rengar's effect does not have bearing on the entire map.

2. (and the one i personally think is a bigger deal) - Nocturne and TF put quite a bit of pressure on the map over the duration of their effects, specifically to your opponents. It's fine for toplane to be scared for ~4s during Paranoia when in reality he's ganking bottom, but is it okay for the entire map to want to change their behaviour/undergo stress for 12 seconds? 10? Can we make Rengar's ult last a satisfying or even appropriate length if everyone on the map is affected the whole time?

3. Can't guarantee that all players will be notified/notice, as not everyone plays with sound on - but an icon or text warning is unmistakable.

I really like using VO to convey the ultimate, but making it global becomes less 'this is a cool thing we could do' and more 'this is actually dipping into the power budget of the ultimate', and i'm not confident making it global vs 'a really wide range' for VO would be worth what we may have to take from it, or the kit.




Already planning on posting on EU, wanted to make a thread fresh with the newest iteration. As we're between iterations currently, expect a thread on EU forums before the week is out, as well as a main-page update to this thread.



Because Rengar is ghosted, and running incredibly quickly at them and can leap once he is within a range greater than some dashes.

All testing has shown that not even once has the icon been a deterrent from Rengar reaching the target - but rather opens a possibility for them to position better. It's all about communication to the enemy of what their situation is, and if they should split (So that Rengar can only leap on one of them) or that you can ready your cooldowns/shields to support the target you suspect he'll leap on - rather than simply not having the reaction time for a stealthed instagib.

As for the test, I went 5/1/4 and it was a 20 minute surrender - and while i was not the only variable in the test, there is nothing to suggest that the increased duration/movement speed isn't more than compensation for alerting his enemies.

He also gives his team vision of your team while he's doing it...so it's not like Rengar just sits there useless. It's an incredibly warping (yet satisfying) ultimate and i'm trying to maintain the feel and strength of it as Rengar's best hunting tool without crippling its effectiveness. So far, the warning seems the best way to accomplish both, and i'm always attempting to tune it where it'll be fair for both sides.
The ultimate effects the teams globally. Everyone should be alerted that squishies are being threatened. Also, question... you can flash during ult (please don't take that away) can you also teleport? if so... that definitely makes it global.


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Kari Arisu

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's)
If you're still going with this, please change it. It's almost worthless for a champion that can jump out of brushes to their target. The only time I can ever see it useful is during laning phase when you run AWAY through both top bushes, which is not very likely for a Rengar that has 3 stacks during laning phase.

Change it to:
Rengar gains 15% movement speed for X seconds after leaping to a target with Unseen Predator.

X can any amount of seconds that feels comfortable. Even if it's just one second, it allows Rengar to jump for CS and get back into the bush quickly, or jump at a champion and stay on them better.


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Mobilized Boat

Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kari Arisu View Post
If you're still going with this, please change it. It's almost worthless for a champion that can jump out of brushes to their target. The only time I can ever see it useful is during laning phase when you run AWAY through both top bushes, which is not very likely for a Rengar that has 3 stacks during laning phase.

Change it to:
Rengar gains 15% movement speed for X seconds after leaping to a target with Unseen Predator.

X can any amount of seconds that feels comfortable. Even if it's just one second, it allows Rengar to jump for CS and get back into the bush quickly, or jump at a champion and stay on them better.
Agreed with everything here. Rengar's movement speed in bushes wont matter because Unseen Predator already chases people. It has no benefits unless you run away from someone which wont matter because you are fed if you have 3 stacks in laning phase already.


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Akira Tsurugi

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

[My personal opnion on him]I don't main Rengar nor do I play him as much as other people have, but I'd like to start, I loved him since I saw him. I would like a few better skins personally that appeal to my taste, but that's slightly off topic.

I'm actually up for the idea of him to still shred your face but over a longer period of time, IF he can actually live up to a longer period of time. I originally did hope he was a bruiser of some sort, but only in the same sense that Riven is one. I know Riven builds AD and barely any tanky defenses, but she can fight, can die if she doesn't go tanky, but has a finish of assassinate skill. [/Personal Opinion Over]

My ideas:

Q: I like the change you went for his Q, rewards for fighting longer, so he still gets his dmg but not so quickly. Overall, I think if his Q gives ASPD, something in his Kit should reward him for attacking a lot. Whether it's build a Ferocity after 5 attacks as part of his passive or so. I know currently his empower Q gives him Ferocity, but it would be a nice idea.The empowerment "mark" is really the best I'd go for, but I'm not sure if putting it on Empowerment is the right choice.

W:
I always enjoyed W's animation, doesn't stop your character and its slick, but it's also not very safe to see the range that it hits when out in the field. I think Rengar to be a bit bruiser ish his E should have like a Jax's E mechanic. His W needs to make him tanky at first off, I understand but to make it useful, make it so he heals based on amount of damage taken, as a bonus (with a cap). Make his Emp. W double that (bonus) heal, and just dealing more damage but same dmg reduction.

E:
Always had a problem with Bola strike. my original sense was going to be, to mark the target so Rengar can jump to it, that really wouldn't slow them down though, and it would let you get kills easier but on a fleeing opponent that's half HP they'll still live.

My idea was, make it like Taric's E. The farther it is, the slow will last longer. For empower, increase the damage, and make it root also for the amount of distance it flew off on. The idea is to make it a better catching opponents, but still a reliable slow to stick to a character. It'll be useful when chasing in bushes cause you can get the distance bola and then hop to them.

R: His R, has a time where it doesn't feel rewarding to use, mostly when you're down on stacks but your team needs you. I realize 3.75s is not much of a time to wait, but it really is. My opinion give the ferocity, slower and only 3 if you come out of stealth? The movement speed lasting outside of stealth is nice, but I mean he can be slown, it's kinda not satisfying at all when that happens, so much for an ult. So at least have another bonus would make it somewhat worth it.

His Passive: I think it's funnest thing about him, them leaps.

BTN: I still think there needs to be some power on this thing apart from the extra AD. Bonus%dmg on his Q, from 50% bonus dmg to 60%. W +10% more healing, E +extra slow/root. (Not all of these, just examples) The ferocity coming out of stealth, and I really do like the extra leap. Give it some small %arpen at higher levels. Lifesteal/Spellvamp +15% even. Doesn't give him dmg, but gives him a bit of sustain. Spellvamp would work with E, and Smite, and sort of on W. Make it, 3 6 9 12 15, so 5 bonuses. I don't know why you're settled with 14.

I deeply apologize my posts/thoughts are always jumping around, and I cannot gather my thoughts and explain myself properly unless I rant even more than this. I know things will be confusing but I hope you get the gist of it.


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Scarizard, I have to level with you. This rework terrifies me. You keep telling us "Oh yeah, he's still an assassin", yet you also said, "I want him to kill targets over 4-6 seconds, not 1-2". Explain to me how he's expected to SURVIVE for 4-6 seconds while on a target he can actually kill? The logical answer is "Buy tank items". But, oh wait, now he's a bruiser ><. You're promising to preserve his playstyle, yet the changes AND the philosophy behind them clearly doesn't do so.

Honestly, this game is growing worse and worse, because you guys are turning it into "ADC are the only thing we care about". You added barrier, a summoner spell that ONLY benefits adcs, you added blade of the ruined king so that every adc now has a huge speed boost AND a slow, and then you systematically nerfed every single assassin in the game, except for fizz, who I'm SURE is getting nerfed. But now you're like "OH WAIT WE FORGOT RENGER, BETTER TURN HIM INTO A BRUISER." Rengar's ult HAS counter play. It's on a long enough cd that you can keep track of it. But even that's not as bad as making it a wimpy 10% bonus. That means you can't gank well at all. With all of the safety measures that bot lane has (support, almost all of them have escapes, barrier, BoTRK), you'll never be able to catch the adc and kill them. And considering that his ult is his only reliable jump for mid lane, that's probably gone too. So... maybe he can gank top? Compare that to a hecarim gank, or a nautilus gank, even without their ults.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. Rengar's gameplay is no more toxic than Eve's gameplay. There's no reason to kill his assassin style.


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Every time I see this thread's title, I think it's about Kat and her knives.


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Zorasama

Senior Member

07-29-2013

^
I'm curious about that too, which build you use to test him?

if he build full damage with zero tank item can he still burst down target in 1-2 sec like before?


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EnvyDragon

Senior Member

07-29-2013

What I didn't like about BTN at launch was that it was basically just a funny-looking Mejai's or Sword of the Occult. If you got kills, you got tiny, barely-noticeable stats in increments that built up over time. The added movespeed was cool, the jump distance was cool, but it the reward tiers never felt like "events" to me; it was just, okay, get more kills, get more stronk.

Oddly enough, I feel like having the movespeed work conditionally (ie. out of combat only) would be way more satisfying. I know when I use mobility boots, the burst of speed pops right out at me way more than it would if it was just a persistent bonus.

I would love to see more of those kinds of BTN bonuses - things that reward you for playing a certain way, or that give you directed raw power. Speed outside of combat makes you feel like your ganks are empowered; speed constantly makes you feel like you just got a generic stat buff.

You guys have probably got a billion ideas already, but here's an example of what I'm thinking of for BTN bonuses:
-Reducing Rengar's basic ability cooldowns by a flat or % amount upon using a Ferocity-empowered ability.
-Slightly extending the leap window after leaving bushes.
-Ferocity-empowered abilities temporarily increasing the amount of physical damage taken by afflicted enemies.
-Giving Rengar a temporary, significant (ie. Catalyst-esque) health regen boost upon killing an enemy.

Stuff like that. Instead of just making him flat-out better, shine the spotlight on a couple of Rengar-esque behaviors to either make them more rewarding to perform or provide new ways of performing them.

Extending his leap distance doesn't make leap more rewarding or more versatile, it just makes it stronger; but if you can keep the leap for, say, 1.5 seconds after leaving bush, then you can flash-leap or Lantern-leap or teleport-leap, for example, to execute all sorts of exciting tactics. Hide in brush, teleport to ward in the middle of another lane... BAM! Knifecat pounce out of thin air!


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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Shamefully I did not read every single red post, but I like the idea of his bonetooth necklace being built from machete (flavorful, useful) and strongly dislike the idea of his ult announcing globally that he used it(He's supposed to be the ultimate predator stalking his prey, and he's going to shout to the whole world before going in for the kill? That makes Rengar seem retarded.)