A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Robo19

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raincall View Post
I find the solution for the lack of counterplay a little uninspired and generic. You're just putting a mark over the head. I don't know if you have thought about it and came to the conclusion that the mark was the only solution but it doesn't feel that way.

Now Rengar has a very unique ult and play style but you're trying to make him like a watered down version of other champions.
Same could be said about other champions;

Lets talk about Aatrox;
Q: Identical to Malphite's ultimate
W: Combines Xin's Q and W. Healing every 3 attacks; damages great burst over 3 attacks.
E: Hard to compare, but this move does not do much to define him any ways. Generally a backwards cone-slow. (closest comparison is Lulu's Q, but lets effective)
R: Elements of Quinn, Sivir, and Kayle.

HOWEVER of every champion listed above Aatrox does not feel like ANY of them! His play style is unique so just because his Q is like Malphite's Ultimate does not mean he can initiate as good as a malphite.

The combination of skills is not what defines the champion but the players that use them.


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Dance Dark

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

For BTN's stacking mechanic, how about making it stack based on the main neutral camp kills, like Giant Wolf or Wraith instead of wolf and lesser wraith, instead of just neutral monster kills in general? That way the difference in number of neutral monsters between camps isn't an issue, the number of camps to clear to reach the next stack is more defined, and counterjungling for BTN stacks doesn't require clearing the entire camp.

Have you considered maybe making BTN stack on Rengar's team's buff+dragon+baron kills? The big game objectives would feel more satisfying to secure through BTN, while farming over time could feel less so if the goal to reach a stack is too high. Counterjungling, buff stealing, and objective control would be even more appealing than they already are, and if it's based on his team's kills he won't have to secure all the buffs himself and can still give them out. The stack numbers would have to be changed, and kills may need to give more stacks or will possibly feel less important to contributing to BTN getting stronger. If this entire change doesn't seem good, then at the very least the Dragon and Baron kills could contribute to current BTN's stacks?

Also, how does current Rengar interact with Oracle's and Pink Wards on the enemy team during the team fight phase? I fear that they may completely counter him, similar to how they affect Akali, by placing the true vision on the target he'd most want to jump on.


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TSP Czernobog

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo19 View Post
The term "ruin" is based on perception; I do not consider karma to be "ruined" in fact I always keep an open mind to champion changes/revamps. Scar can not assure anything as champion design is a team effort though with that in mind Rengar players are shutting out any changes to his skills!

No matter what changes are made, it is impossible for everyone to be happy however that does not mean a change isn't required. Anyone who says Rengar is fine as he is, has to be blind to the problems or is abusing the very problems that cause this toxic gameplay.

Let's put it this way; if Rengar's skills were to be unchanged, the damage on his Q would have to drop 30% overall (probably from his AD ratio mostly).
Would you prefer him being nerfed until he never sees another ranked game? Or are you willing to be open to a new play style and willing to adapt these changes for the better?

If you are truly good with Rengar, you will find a way to appreciate these changes and curve your play style to sync with the new AND IMPROVED Rengar.
First off, every single person who has ever played karma pre-rework will tell you that she has been totally ruined and is no longer the same champion.

Second, Improved? If by improved you mean the exact opposite of improved, then I agree. Rengar's damage is not too high, the other assassin's damage is too low because they've been nerfed quite hard damagewise because riot favors adc players and they've made that brutally obvious with the nerfs to tanks, tank items and assassins. The last time Rengar was hit by the nerf bat, he became totally unviable until people figured out a good niche for him which took several months, and even then, good Rengar players were very rare. If you consider Rengar's ability to kill squishies very fast toxic, then you find the only true assassin in the game to be toxic. Rengar cannot kill tanks and most tanky characters at any efficient speed, and reducing the speed of the only job he can do efficiently is utterly ludicrous, and will not fix him at all.

Rengar barely sees ranked play as it is, and it wasn't until last months that people actually started playing him quite a bit.

I'd much rather be refunded for the cost of Rengar and find a new champion to main as opposed to learning the new style of a champion who I bought simply because I thought he had real character compared to other champions with a similar role.


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deathmage390

Senior Member

07-29-2013

scarizard we are still waiting for you or any red after you moved us to champion feedback to get us off GD. we are nearing 1000 pages.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post40214790

we would love to hear from you guys again.

sincerly
An unhappy karma fan.


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MetaEngineer

Member

07-29-2013

So far, we haven't been given any numbers so i'm giving the benefit of the doubt. The revealing icon can easily serve the purpose of adding counterplay while not making Thrill of the Hunt useless. However, it has to be carefully executed.

1. Allow rengar's revealing vision to increase with rank. DO NOT allow the icon range to also increase with rank! this means his ult gets worse the higher rank.

2. Naturally an effect that occurs when approaching an enemy is negating the whole idea of stealth. Take eve's passive, it allows a decent amount of counterplay for being an innate ability. Rengar however is using his ultimate ability and thus the counterplay should be much less. The lane who he ganks should have only up to 2 seconds to think "rengar, RENGAR!"

This way you aren't already taking dmg before you even know rengar is there (like live). BUT, if rengar is taking advantage of E.G.an overextension, you dont have the time to correct your positioning


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Nores

Senior Member

07-29-2013

I dont understand point of this rework. Rengar is fun niche champion ATM with clear and big weaknesses (hence his winrate across every elo ). Converting him into another nocturn'esque bruiser will just make him that - a sub par bruiser. There is reason nocturne right now is in pretty bad spot- you cant be melee bruiser in this game without bringing A LOT OF utility (like j4 or lee sin) and nocturne has way better utility than rengar


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aces2kj

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Riot is saying that theyre listening to the communitys feedback almost everyone on this thread is saying that they dont want rengar to be a bruiser but an assasin but our feedback isnt changing anything riots still going to change him into a bruiser despite most of the negative feedback towards that seriously youre just nerfing him again when this is supposed to be a "rework"


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TSP Czernobog

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nores View Post
I dont understand point of this rework. Rengar is fun niche champion ATM with clear and big weaknesses (hence his winrate across every elo ). Converting him into another nocturn'esque bruiser will just make him that - a sub par bruiser. There is reason nocturne right now is in pretty bad spot- you cant be melee bruiser in this game without bringing A LOT OF utility (like j4 or lee sin) and nocturne has way better utility than rengar
Ikr! Rengar has literally been nerfed into the ground, underground, and the deepest level of hell since he came out, and they want to nerf him even more.

Look at karma, she went from fun to use and viable to "toxic because no one on her team knows what her skills do so nerf nerf nerf"


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aces2kj

Senior Member

07-29-2013

"I'm all fine for letting champions play in a variety of roles, and I do partly enjoy the fact that Rengar is getting some focus to become a solid jungler (not saying that he isn't good now, I think he's awesome already), but they seem to be forcing him down a jungle root with the new BTN. Making it stack from jungle creeps, building out of machete, and altering the stack changes all tunnel him straight to the jungle.
What I'm most of afraid of Riot doing to him, and am sure every other Rengar player is afraid of is turning from an ASSASSIN into a BRUSIER. I cannot express how much I do not want him to turn into a boring sustained fighter, and I don't want him to get Olaf'd.
I understand the Ultimate change, it is really toxic, but there are always pink wards, they make it out like Rengar is uncounterable with his stealth, and this just isn't true.
Just please, if Riot takes anything from the community because they're so godly at doing so (sarcasm is strong), do not turn him from a burst assassin, to a sustained fighter. He has the best identity in the game with his kit and look, and removing his burst will severely damage is current feel and identity."

This dude sums it up in a nice package


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Hey everybody, just wanted to update you guys with the current testing status of our current iteration of Rengar.

Heavy destructive testing will continue for the Empowered Savagery refunding 3 ferocity points play pattern. This past week we found that Rengar was still doing too much damage in too little of a time frame which is a problem we still need to solve within this iteration. This iteration also makes jungle Rengar incredibly resourceful as he can walk away from each creep camp with more ferocity stacks and gank lanes without as much preparation.

The big changes we will be testing this week are Bone Tooth Necklace which will now give Rengar a personalized jungle item which has a really favorable build path out of Long Sword and Hunter's Machete. The overall price of the item has stayed the same but as Scarizard said in his posts, "mini-brutalizer" - esque stats will no longer exist on BTN. BTN is now an item that gives Rengar bonuses that directly impact his mobility in the jungle and thus his overall map pressure. The current bonuses in place look something like this:

3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's)

6 Stacks - Rengar gains 100 range on his Leap(slightly nerfed due to having access to it earlier.)

9 Stacks - Rengar retains movement speed from his Ultimate for 5 seconds after exiting his ultimate. (Rocket cat goes zooooooooom)

The 14 stack bonus is still a pretty big grey area as we want Rengar players to reach this epic state at 14 stacks but we don't want them to do so at the cost of making his game play toxic again.

An additional mechanic we will be testing with BTN is allowing Rengar players to build stacks out of neutral monster kills. Currently the amount of neutral monster kills required to build a stack is pretty hefty, which encourages jungle Rengar to invade the enemy jungle to take camps but also hopefully interact with the enemy jungler. This mechanic is still kind of the grey area as well because it might give too many advantages to a jungle Rengar over a lane Rengar and we don't want to make laning Rengar's feel bad for purchasing this item.

If you guys have any thoughts on what epic thing Rengar should get at maximum stacks toss'em out! I look forward to the ideas you guys will give me and Scarizard!

rengar 14 stack BTN should do this

rengar becomes the ultimate predator, after reaching full ferocity he gains unseen predator for 2 seconds or 1 use

combined this with his currently increased rate of ferocity gain on his Q2 gives him a very string stick to target, and can even give him escape after an assassination with minion / jungle camps nearby, and being his 14 stack bonus, this should be powerful and give him the jumpy knifecat feel

also please consider giving BTN an active effect that acts like Grez's Spectral Lantern but does not reveal stealth, a short duration (1-2 seconds), a smaller AoE (about as big as alistars pulverize), and has a short range (the range of his leap will work well, making it also couple with his 6T effect) (this gives rengar some wall jump in jungle (for example, jumping from red buff to the golems) [this also promotes this item for jungle rengar and gives the jumpy knifecat feel] (ps this also helps invade rengar check a corner for if its 'immediately' safe but the short duration will prevent using it as a mini ward)

lastly I'm a bit behind on the rengar changes so I'm looking forward to the updated OP