A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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F r 0 s T i

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Hey everybody, just wanted to update you guys with the current testing status of our current iteration of Rengar.

Heavy destructive testing will continue for the Empowered Savagery refunding 3 ferocity points play pattern. This past week we found that Rengar was still doing too much damage in too little of a time frame which is a problem we still need to solve within this iteration. This iteration also makes jungle Rengar incredibly resourceful as he can walk away from each creep camp with more ferocity stacks and gank lanes without as much preparation.

The big changes we will be testing this week are Bone Tooth Necklace which will now give Rengar a personalized jungle item which has a really favorable build path out of Long Sword and Hunter's Machete. The overall price of the item has stayed the same but as Scarizard said in his posts, "mini-brutalizer" - esque stats will no longer exist on BTN. BTN is now an item that gives Rengar bonuses that directly impact his mobility in the jungle and thus his overall map pressure. The current bonuses in place look something like this:

3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's)

6 Stacks - Rengar gains 100 range on his Leap(slightly nerfed due to having access to it earlier.)

9 Stacks - Rengar retains movement speed from his Ultimate for 5 seconds after exiting his ultimate. (Rocket cat goes zooooooooom)

The 14 stack bonus is still a pretty big grey area as we want Rengar players to reach this epic state at 14 stacks but we don't want them to do so at the cost of making his game play toxic again.

An additional mechanic we will be testing with BTN is allowing Rengar players to build stacks out of neutral monster kills. Currently the amount of neutral monster kills required to build a stack is pretty hefty, which encourages jungle Rengar to invade the enemy jungle to take camps but also hopefully interact with the enemy jungler. This mechanic is still kind of the grey area as well because it might give too many advantages to a jungle Rengar over a lane Rengar and we don't want to make laning Rengar's feel bad for purchasing this item.

If you guys have any thoughts on what epic thing Rengar should get at maximum stacks toss'em out! I look forward to the ideas you guys will give me and Scarizard!
No one has still said anything as to why him doing damage fast is a problem. He's and assassin, not a bruiser. another thing I don't think has been brought up, is that outside of his ultimate you can see how many stacks he has. It's not like he just magically does the damage.

Please just answer why its a problem for an assassin who played well and got fed to deal his damage to a single target fast? I'm still not understanding.


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IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbu ƒrahma View Post
He's and assassin, not a bruiser.
The thing is, Scarizard's goal here is to change that.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbu ƒrahma View Post
No one has still said anything as to why him doing damage fast is a problem. He's and assassin, not a bruiser. another thing I don't think has been brought up, is that outside of his ultimate you can see how many stacks he has. It's not like he just magically does the damage.

Please just answer why its a problem for an assassin who played well and got fed to deal his damage to a single target fast? I'm still not understanding.
I think Riot would like to stray away from the "I kill you in 3 seconds" play pattern most other assassins have. Let's be honest, dying to Kha'zix in 3 seconds is pretty frustrating.


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Raasu

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbu ∆’rahma View Post
No one has still said anything as to why him doing damage fast is a problem. He's and assassin, not a bruiser. another thing I don't think has been brought up, is that outside of his ultimate you can see how many stacks he has. It's not like he just magically does the damage.

Please just answer why its a problem for an assassin who played well and got fed to deal his damage to a single target fast? I'm still not understanding.
I feel the same way. I agree with them that 1-2 seconds is rather quick for the sheer amount of damage he's dealing but I think 5-6 seconds is also too much. Somewhere in-between those numbers around 3-4 seconds seems like a good middle ground as it still allows for a response without taking so long that it becomes difficult to be an assassin instead of a bruiser.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Hey everybody, just wanted to update you guys with the current testing status of our current iteration of Rengar.

Heavy destructive testing will continue for the Empowered Savagery refunding 3 ferocity points play pattern. This past week we found that Rengar was still doing too much damage in too little of a time frame which is a problem we still need to solve within this iteration. This iteration also makes jungle Rengar incredibly resourceful as he can walk away from each creep camp with more ferocity stacks and gank lanes without as much preparation.

The big changes we will be testing this week are Bone Tooth Necklace which will now give Rengar a personalized jungle item which has a really favorable build path out of Long Sword and Hunter's Machete. The overall price of the item has stayed the same but as Scarizard said in his posts, "mini-brutalizer" - esque stats will no longer exist on BTN. BTN is now an item that gives Rengar bonuses that directly impact his mobility in the jungle and thus his overall map pressure. The current bonuses in place look something like this:

3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's)

6 Stacks - Rengar gains 100 range on his Leap(slightly nerfed due to having access to it earlier.)

9 Stacks - Rengar retains movement speed from his Ultimate for 5 seconds after exiting his ultimate. (Rocket cat goes zooooooooom)

The 14 stack bonus is still a pretty big grey area as we want Rengar players to reach this epic state at 14 stacks but we don't want them to do so at the cost of making his game play toxic again.

An additional mechanic we will be testing with BTN is allowing Rengar players to build stacks out of neutral monster kills. Currently the amount of neutral monster kills required to build a stack is pretty hefty, which encourages jungle Rengar to invade the enemy jungle to take camps but also hopefully interact with the enemy jungler. This mechanic is still kind of the grey area as well because it might give too many advantages to a jungle Rengar over a lane Rengar and we don't want to make laning Rengar's feel bad for purchasing this item.

If you guys have any thoughts on what epic thing Rengar should get at maximum stacks toss'em out! I look forward to the ideas you guys will give me and Scarizard!
Challenge accepted?

tough one on a new 14 stack. you kind of got all the good points covered without breaking it. as much as you dont want to make BTN about stats maybe thats what it should have at 14 stacks. You wont always have 14 stacks as you lose one with each death (unless thats getting changed) and 14 stacks is a pretty hefty number to build up to. Perhaps this is the way you can make up for BTN feeling a bit like a crutch late game so it can stay a bit more viable overall. It is hard to say what stats would be a good fit for this considering we dont know what stats the new BTN is bringing to the table (I assume it will be getting some more attack damage but without knowing the actual numbers I'm not really comfortable making any sort of stat suggestions)

its just a thought. I kind of feel strongly that if an item is going to take a slot in your inventory that it needs to have some sort of stats to make it a more attractive item rather than a fun effects if you can manage to get them sort of thing. Perhaps a better way to do this is to make another build tier past just BTN that can be built later in the game. might even be interesting if it required you to have a certain amount of trophies to be able to upgrade it.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Question: Why does bonetooth have to be an item?

Why can't the trophy aspect of bonetooth be built into his ultimate, or his passive? I feel this could maintain his "Trophy hunting" theologies, and still not be over the top. Thematically it would make sense, seeing as the trophy stacks affect Unseen Predator (via range) anyways.


IMO removing the stats on bonetooth may improve his general feel and open room to strengthen various phases of the match, what happens in those extra long games with full item builds?

Isn't this why bonetooth was made cost efficient on just stats alone, and no stacks? I was under the impression that initially that item slot was much more valuable than bonetooth going into late game pre-release, and thought it was buffed to compensate.

I mean, I'm not good enough to even notice things like this in a match, but on the competitive end I'm just concerned that full build matches will put him at a big disadvantage if the stats are removed from bonetooth.

Would it not be easier to address if his trophy mechanic was built in as a passive on one of his abilities, rather than an item he has to purchase tying up one of his item slots?


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-29-2013

So your nerfing his q, r, and bone tooth K Rito.


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Silatuyok

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
I understand you're scared, upset and worried your favorite champion is going to be harmed. That you are going to be weaker afterwards. Perhaps you've even struggled to prove to people that Rengar is awesome when the world's believed he's so weak for so long.
Xel; If you say the words 'This will not be a Karma' you pretty much have my blessing to do whatever you want to Mr Grumpycat. I love Rengar, he is different and exciting and fun and I would very much like him to stay that way.

Subjective ramble aside I have to say that he is very satisfying thematicly, he feels very much like his lore and appearance suggest and I think the biggest issue people have is that he will lose that (kinda like the Yin-Yang theme got thrown out the window with Karma) and as long as his visceral and fast paced gameplay is preserved I think you will please many people

~Sil


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbu ∆’rahma View Post
No one has still said anything as to why him doing damage fast is a problem. He's and assassin, not a bruiser. another thing I don't think has been brought up, is that outside of his ultimate you can see how many stacks he has. It's not like he just magically does the damage.

Please just answer why its a problem for an assassin who played well and got fed to deal his damage to a single target fast? I'm still not understanding.
it is probably that it is straight up to much damage in to little time. What i mean is that most assassins have cast times which equal out their damage over a length of time (including cooldowns), rengars unique resource system overrides a cooldown and grants an even greater damage potential with the empowered version which is most likely the issue they are running into. Trying to figure out just what to do without making him feel like a major clunk is difficult.

It also has to do with counterplay. If you can jump out of your ult stealth onto an enemy adc and kill them in under 2 seconds with little to no time to react to this happening you are maintaining the big toxic element rengar has currently. this is what they are trying to alter to make him a more fair experience.


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WhoopsiGoldburg

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Just curious, Is rengar being changed soley for his ability to instagib, or is it the way that he instagibbed with his ult?

Going to be swept under or downvoted but, is riot currently looking at the entire burst assassin archetype as a whole or because rengar had to hard a kit to balance as an assassin?