A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Proically

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Senior Member

07-22-2013

Hey Riot!

(Please don't take this at all offensively, just pointing something out that I feel strongly about).

You keep saying that stealth characters have no counterplay.

Have you ever heard of PINK WARDS?

People seem to think that Oracles is the hard counter to stealth-based characters. It's not, and never really was. Stealth-based characters would've just assassinated you to get rid of it. Now they just ignore it because:
a. Even if you kill them, they still have it
b. The range is so small that no one really gives a f*ck

Pink wards, on the other hand:
*Last the full duration in teamfights, regardless of whether you die or not, since people rarely focus them, especially if you place it in the middle of your team

*Can True Sight multiple areas of the map. Say you're fighting in mid lane, pushing till around the outer middle tower (but you've lost it already)...2 pink wards, one in the jungle on either side, will guarantee that Rengar can only jump on you if he runs through the entire team to get to the ADC, and just about every skillshot ever will hit him.

*Also deny enemy ward vision, and let you see that the enemy has placed wards there, thus giving away their position, even without knowing they've done so.

*Needless to say, also provide regular vision from where they're placed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, why are you trying to make his combo take so long to kill people?
If the sheer burst is the real problem, just make it so he can't triple Q, he can only double Q.

You've just fixed your biggest issue with the champ: lowering the skill cap.

Uhm, I mean, removing his insta-burst potential. Everything else is still as it was.

Honestly, I really don't understand why you're rushing to do this. Haven't seen a Rengar QQ post on here for a very long time...

As always, Red response is appreciated!

-Proically


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Atyres

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE RaPaGe GuY View Post
Hey Riot!

(Please don't take this at all offensively, just pointing something out that I feel strongly about).

You keep saying that stealth characters have no counterplay.

Have you ever heard of PINK WARDS?

People seem to think that Oracles is the hard counter to stealth-based characters. It's not, and never really was. Stealth-based characters would've just assassinated you to get rid of it. Now they just ignore it because:
a. Even if you kill them, they still have it
b. The range is so small that no one really gives a f*ck

Pink wards, on the other hand:
*Last the full duration in teamfights, regardless of whether you die or not, since people rarely focus them, especially if you place it in the middle of your team

*Can True Sight multiple areas of the map. Say you're fighting in mid lane, pushing till around the outer middle tower (but you've lost it already)...2 pink wards, one in the jungle on either side, will guarantee that Rengar can only jump on you if he runs through the entire team to get to the ADC, and just about every skillshot ever will hit him.

*Also deny enemy ward vision, and let you see that the enemy has placed wards there, thus giving away their position, even without knowing they've done so.

*Needless to say, also provide regular vision from where they're placed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, why are you trying to make his combo take so long to kill people?
If the sheer burst is the real problem, just make it so he can't triple Q, he can only double Q.

You've just fixed your biggest issue with the champ: lowering the skill cap.

Uhm, I mean, removing his insta-burst potential. Everything else is still as it was.

Honestly, I really don't understand why you're rushing to do this. Haven't seen a Rengar QQ post on here for a very long time...

As always, Red response is appreciated!

-Proically
You're not going to get one, I have said this a couple of times in this thread with no response =/


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo19 View Post
Do you have a suggestion that can "fix" his ultimate while meeting the following criteria?
:
1. Can not stealth and burst without any form of retaliation (wards excluded)
2. Can not be the same as another champion (eve in particular)
3. Can not stay as it is (falls under criteria 1 as well)

It is a good thing your answer (whether you post it or not) won't be taken credible by other players as it is impossible to meet all 3 of these and keep everyone happy! You would be getting the same negative responses that you are contributing to this process. Don't take this in offense, but please post something that can help instead of joining the whine-tasting band waggen.

1. with the currect Q proposed changes the burst will no longer be there but more of a sustained damage thing. plus wards and oracle is part of the game. you can't exclude items that are meant to counteract against specific things.
2. why can't it be the same as another champion? its stealth. eve is perma stealthed except when she's within a range, then she has a massive speed boost to close the gap.
3. can you tell me how the proposed ultimate differs from warwicks passive W?

its not a badwagon im jumping on. Only Rengar has mentioned very similar things as well, as well as other top players or players who play regar very frequently.


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ANGLVD3TH

Member

07-22-2013

Random thought, but if you want to increase his sustain and decrease his burst, maybe try giving an incentive to not spam all his abilities at once and give them a slight buff. For example, make it so you can only gain a fury stack once every X amount of time.

But the biggest issues seems to have generally been doublecasting, so what if you changed how the fury charged attack works? You could either give bonuses for combos or diminishing returns for repeated spells. Like, if you fury cast q, one of two buffs can be applied, slight healthsteal if w was used shortly before, or slight slow to attacks if e was. Or, spells can have half potency if it was cast less than a second ago.

EDIT Also I really like the idea of more uniqueness to his amulet. Nothing specific to contribute I'm afraid but think you should keep looking into it.

And another thing, (I fear I may be adding a lot seeing as I posted before reading most of the thread :s) what if we kept the same goal of the w but by using a pair of more creative effects rather than flat dmg mitigation. For example, he could slow auto attacks and gain some tenacity.


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matimogli8

Junior Member

07-23-2013

rengar need a single array, which is equal to or slightly better than kha, by the hidden passive with 2 campiones.


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mr underhilI

Senior Member

07-23-2013

ok, so this is coming from a guy that played the hell out of rengar untill you guys nerfed him to the ground.

first of all thank you rioter for reading these posts and giving feed back, lots of these designers dont do that "cough heimerdinger ", so dont think we dont appreciate your work.

--second:about the rengar champion, i never played him on top lane, i think i had about 40 games in s2 on him and all were in jungle, i had so much fun in jungle with all the bushes he could jump from.but right now hes so weak and slow in jungle that hes not worth playing.

--third: what i see alot of people here say, is that they want rengar to be something like irelia, a champion that does damage even when he goes tanky, and i think thats how a rengar should be. he should be a tank that does damage.

--four : now you might ask , "if hes a tank, then what about the people who want him to be an assassin?" well, this is where the BTN comes in, BTN should be an item that makes regar do more damage , IF he can get stacks. meaning if you want to play as an assassin then you need to participate more in teamfights, rather than split pushing farming.

--five: it has been stated before, give BTN some jungling abilities that helps rengar jungle in early levels,for example give BTN some passive armor or 5% life steal, something that helps rengar in the jungle.and make it cost the same as a HM 300 gold.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

07-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE RaPaGe GuY View Post
Hey Riot!

(Please don't take this at all offensively, just pointing something out that I feel strongly about).

You keep saying that stealth characters have no counterplay.

Have you ever heard of PINK WARDS?

People seem to think that Oracles is the hard counter to stealth-based characters. It's not, and never really was. Stealth-based characters would've just assassinated you to get rid of it. Now they just ignore it because:
a. Even if you kill them, they still have it
b. The range is so small that no one really gives a f*ck

Pink wards, on the other hand:
*Last the full duration in teamfights, regardless of whether you die or not, since people rarely focus them, especially if you place it in the middle of your team

*Can True Sight multiple areas of the map. Say you're fighting in mid lane, pushing till around the outer middle tower (but you've lost it already)...2 pink wards, one in the jungle on either side, will guarantee that Rengar can only jump on you if he runs through the entire team to get to the ADC, and just about every skillshot ever will hit him.

*Also deny enemy ward vision, and let you see that the enemy has placed wards there, thus giving away their position, even without knowing they've done so.

*Needless to say, also provide regular vision from where they're placed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, why are you trying to make his combo take so long to kill people?
If the sheer burst is the real problem, just make it so he can't triple Q, he can only double Q.

You've just fixed your biggest issue with the champ: lowering the skill cap.

Uhm, I mean, removing his insta-burst potential. Everything else is still as it was.

Honestly, I really don't understand why you're rushing to do this. Haven't seen a Rengar QQ post on here for a very long time...

As always, Red response is appreciated!

-Proically

I don't see what's wrong with Triple Q. It doesn't yield unfair amounts of burst, and it actually requires input. Hell, most assassins can just mash buttons to deliver similar burst, at least he has to pop his ult and time it.

THEIR issue is that burst coming out of nowhere. So they added counterplay to his ultimate then buffed his other skills to compensate. THAT'S ALL THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. Don't double dip into the nerf pool and take BOTH away. Just the ultimate's surprise buttsecks will suffice.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE RaPaGe GuY View Post
Hey Riot!

You keep saying that stealth characters have no counterplay.

Have you ever heard of PINK WARDS?

People seem to think that Oracles is the hard counter to stealth-based characters. It's not, and never really was. Stealth-based characters would've just assassinated you to get rid of it. Now they just ignore it because:
a. Even if you kill them, they still have it
b. The range is so small that no one really gives a f*ck

Pink wards, on the other hand:
*Last the full duration in teamfights, regardless of whether you die or not, since people rarely focus them, especially if you place it in the middle of your team

*Can True Sight multiple areas of the map. Say you're fighting in mid lane, pushing till around the outer middle tower (but you've lost it already)...2 pink wards, one in the jungle on either side, will guarantee that Rengar can only jump on you if he runs through the entire team to get to the ADC, and just about every skillshot ever will hit him.

*Also deny enemy ward vision, and let you see that the enemy has placed wards there, thus giving away their position, even without knowing they've done so.

*Needless to say, also provide regular vision from where they're placed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, why are you trying to make his combo take so long to kill people?
If the sheer burst is the real problem, just make it so he can't triple Q, he can only double Q.
You've just fixed your biggest issue with the champ: lowering the skill cap.
Uhm, I mean, removing his insta-burst potential. Everything else is still as it was.
Honestly, I really don't understand why you're rushing to do this. Haven't seen a Rengar QQ post on here for a very long time...
As always, Red response is appreciated!
-Proically
LOL, Only Rengar has an almost 100% Win rate in ranked 5v5 teams with Rengar, that means when he picks Rengar, there chance that they will win that game are close to 100%, AT CHALLENGER LEVEL PLAY. Youd think they would know how to "counter" the stealth champs you think are so easy to counter. You wanna know why they win almost any match when he is on Rengar? You can watch his stream and find out for yourself but ill make it short: He Removes the enemy AD or AP Carry from the game, before the enemy team can even BLINK, in EVERY FIGHT. He makes the game essentially a 4v5.

That has no counterplay, it needs to be toned down, whether you like it or not.


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Bl00dyH3ll1

Member

07-23-2013

So during work I had an idea about Rengar's passive since Riot's reworking him and all that.
His old passive allowed him to jump on someone when Rengar's stealthed or in a bush. So my idea would be like this.
Rengar gets a stack of "jump" or "leap" when he enters a bush or when he is stealthed and on his next auto attack, he leaps at his target and consumes the stack (maximum stacks is 1). If you guys think its OP, then maybe the stack decays after a few seconds, but I just thought it would make his ganks a lot better especially in mid lane since a lot of midlaners don't stand too close to the bushes unless they have it warded.


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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

07-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bl00dyH3ll1 View Post
So during work I had an idea about Rengar's passive since Riot's reworking him and all that.
His old passive allowed him to jump on someone when Rengar's stealthed or in a bush. So my idea would be like this.
Rengar gets a stack of "jump" or "leap" when he enters a bush or when he is stealthed and on his next auto attack, he leaps at his target and consumes the stack (maximum stacks is 1). If you guys think its OP, then maybe the stack decays after a few seconds, but I just thought it would make his ganks a lot better especially in mid lane since a lot of midlaners don't stand too close to the bushes unless they have it warded.
In other words, increase the little grace period he has right now, when he leaves a bush?

You better stick to your job and dont think about "ideas" for reworks