A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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PlaygroundTactic

Junior Member

07-22-2013

Maybe if your worried about the necklace not being attractive to more passive farmgars it could gain a significantly smaller number of stacks just from lanning/leveling up/farming but those stacks could still be lost so the conservative rengar could farm up in toplane play passively and get some BTN stacks before beggining his hunt, to highlight his jungle maybe those farm bonuses get doubled for big minions/monster mobs? but this way he can still get benefit from BTN if his style is more passive/theres less pressure to only buy BTN if your being a crazy knifecat. But on the same token since those benefits stack slower/are less he'll always know he's meant for more....


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Al3x4ndar

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Senior Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
When you look at other characters with the ability to close onto a target from a long distance away:

TF, Shen, Fiddlesticks, Pantheon, Nocturne, etc. Even Kha'zix to an extent.

They *all* have a warning and telegraph that they are about to do it. Even Eve, the bonafide stealth champ, reveals herself before attacking you. Rengar is the only one who breaks the "warning" rule.
Twitch.


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BeasTxNAxBusH

Junior Member

07-22-2013

The current status of Rengar removes the beast nature of his beastness .. He aint good early game unless you get early gank kills, his late game isnt the peak of his personality either .. I used to love playing with him and now I just love having him in my roster cause I know his capability. He needs to be buffed, not to the point of what he was at first but just to the point of having that "Grrrrrrrr... AAAHHHHHH" feeling again.

Im mainly played with Rengar and Im not even the Beast in a Bush that I want to be, my name was even made just for Rengar.


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Talnova

Junior Member

07-22-2013

I am a Game Designer and I have to get this out if any designers are listening.

Riot has no clue what they are doing when it comes to balancing a fighting game.
When you finish a fighter in a game - I can understand tweaking the characters but changing them all together is really retarded. I think you have come to the point where you now notice you have way too many fighters and are starting to panic.

I also notice your client is now lagging people to death - friends who use to play this game a year ago can no longer play your game. Why? cause your client is using up too many resources now. But ill let your amazing programmer figure that out.

I play Rengar all the time look at my match history riot - show me where Rengar is broken please. Go ahead show me!

Now his Ult is going to be totally useless! Even ask SAINT VICIOUS (leader of the team "Curse) - Which by the way if it wasn't for Saint Vicious and pro league gaming. I think your game would have died a slow death. But sure l Let Saint Vicious - tell you what he thinks of Rengar. He will tell you "Rengar sucks!" So why on earth would you NERF HIM!

I will go back to playing Shyvana - cause in my opinion she is more broken then Rengar.
She doesn't give a warning when she jump over a wall to gank and all you have to do is hit W and run over people like a freight Train. I can go easily 10 and 0 with her.

Seriously you want champions who are broken? Aatrox, Tryndamere, Kayle, Proxy Singe, Elise being able to tower dive and fiora able to tower dive without penalty.
Do I really need to go on about the other broken bugs in your game?

Frankly ill let others figure that stuff out.

Do I really need to go on, seriously your fighting game is slowly going to die a slow death. Cause people are going to get fed up with you changing it all the time.

Does anyone remember the dodge ability?
Why not bring that back and put more skill into this game instead of having champs spamming Q, W, E


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arcticturtle

Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I would assume a smart player would be ganking a lower health target or save the ult to catch a fleeing opponent after he's burned flash.

Either way, it seems like you already have made up your mind before playing it. Counterplay is a good thing for a character. Rengar getting away without warning for so long is why he's been nerfed to the level he's at now.
Well, I have a suggestion for your group (Xelnath, Scarizard, Wav3Break, and whoever else working on it) that should open up MORE counterplay and keep assassin-cats equally happy as fighter-cats.

Make bone-tooth-necklace change the values on Rengar's abilities. If you don't buy BTN, then you are a fighter, and you have a good heal etc, but not as fast chaining of abilities (less ferocity building up). If you do buy BTN, you don't have a heal at all but instead more damage, and you build ferocity faster so that you are able to burst people down and be an assassin.

Then make BTN scale like Mejai's or Occult blade. So that if you succeed in assassination you get really strong, but if the opposing team cooperates to take you down they are able to strip you of a lot of your power. This will reward people who manage to keep a high skill level on this champion, and discourage people who just want to own noobs (because "noobs" will eventually strike back).

If you on top of this manage to make BTN a good starter item, then it's a perfect solution IMO. But even as it is now an 800 gold item, it should work to make a choice early game when you know what your team needs and what you're up against. And any opponent pressing TAB will see that uh-oh now I need to be careful of ganks.


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arcticturtle

Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talnova View Post
Does anyone remember the dodge ability?
Why not bring that back and put more skill into this game instead of having champs spamming Q, W, E
Dude, dodge was removed because it was random, not because it awarded skilled play. Are you just trolling, or do you actually believe the stuff you wrote?


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phantomash

Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey y'all -

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.


Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks

Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range (roughly 1000) when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
Rengar is meant to be an assassin from his lore, which tend to be highly mobile and bursty. He looks like a beefy bruiser, which is unlike most assassins. The real question here is what his role actually is, since hes been an ad and ap nuke, as well as a beefwall.

thematically you'd expect him to be a jungler, but most junglers being used right now are beefy with crowd control, and build jungle/ tank items. If rengar was to go down this road his bola would probably always root a short duration, with his roar slowing (probably removing the heal) which would let him jump from a bush, slow, and root if they flash, or root, run up and slow. might be a bit much in the crowd control, especially since there's so much right now, but if he was changed to be a tanky jungler then he wouldn't be doing a bunch of damage, and healing on w would help him in the jungle and in a tanking role.

Carry junglers like nocturne are seen occasionally, and that could work, if rengar's roar was more like a spellshield, but his double q would still need work if he was an ad assassin (obviously he wouldn't have as much gold being a jungler, unless he gets fed).

some popular ad assassins like kha'zix or talon go mid/top, and an ad assassin rivalry between kha'zix and rengar would be more likely this way. Kha'zix can also jungle.

Making battle roar give a physical damage reduction boost seems op, but I guess it has to be since jumping into a group of five people nowadays means perma stun, though hes more likely to take burst damage from mages than ad, since the adc he jumps will be trying to run.

Rengar is meant to be a hunter, and even when he could instagib ad carries, the smart players would wait until the fight started to jump on them. after that they could slink away or attack someone else depending on the focus of the enemy team.

making battle roar a knockback of all enemies in its range and removing slows, instead of a heal, would be a better choice for an assassin, since he could jump the adc, and have some sort of escape if he got focused. That is kinda what roar does now -heal if you get bursted in order to escape. giving him a better escape mechanic would help him feel like a better assassin; get in, burst, get out.

He'd still need tuning on burst of course, so it might be a better idea to remove ferocity and double skills, since he has a passive that lets him jump from bushes, then make him another champion with no mana, but dependant on cooldowns, like garen or Katarina. The charge up to a second stronger skill is a cool idea, but rengar has so much in his kit already that it might be better on a different (renekton?) or new champion.

If he's fed as an assassin, he should be able to kill people fast, but if he's just doing ok, he shouldn't, assassins rely on skill and gold to do their job, and if he's diving into an enemy team, he needs an escape. Talon has his ult, Kat and kha'zix get a refresh on e from kills, so they can jump someone else, or try to get out. Maybe rengar needs a jump skill that refreshes when walking into bushes instead of a passive jump? then you could keep the ferocity mechanic, while tuning the burst on double q.

On the subject of bonetooth necklace, you said you liked the special bonuses, so you could give it a bonus to each skill that scales with level. Jump range increase, slight damage or attack speed boost from q, radius of w (if its a heal or knockback), range on e(or root duration), and time extension/speed boost on his ult. That way, even though it doesn't provide pure stats, its almost necessary. You could change it to be like viktor's item, forced to take it, and it provides stats, but you can upgrade it to give a bonus to one skill. Of course, then you'd have to give people a real reason to take upgrades besides q. Or you could force the item on players, but make it upgrade one skill at the same time as ult level up. That would make him similar to kha'zix.

Increasing his health and regen doesn't make much sense since he has a built in heal, but if you want to go the jungle tank route I guess that works. Assassins tend to be squishy.

I didn't see much problem with him becoming visible halfway through the leap, though when he comes out of nowhere and you don't expect it I guess that is a good change, because it gives people time to flash or jump away before he nukes them.

The attack speed buff from q was a nice thing, because it meant that otherwise his attack speed was slow, and rengar doesn't usually build attack speed, so after the initial nuke, his damage was average or low. That is consistent with an assassin, though they usually have little or no damage after their combo. When his q is balanced right, it will mean that double q(or single q if ferocity if removed) will leave the target with a small amount of health that theoretically the attack speed bonus will finish off. With that idea, the target has time to escape after rengar comes out of nowhere. I assume that was the original theory behind the attack speed bonus, even though things didn't turn out that way.

Bola stike: now rengar has a ranged execute! If he's a melee ad nuke, why buff his ranged crowd control? If he's an assassin, why does he even have hard crowd control? The skill has been around so long that its part of what people think when they face rengar, so you probably don't want to get rid of it, but giving him a damaging root doesn't sound like a balanced idea. lowering the current flat ad, while increasing the scaling on it makes some sense though. Then if he's a fed monster, it will show, but otherwise his bola wont do much other than root. Trying to distribute the damage dealt through his kit is a good way to stop abusive burst though.

One of the problems I see is that you're trying to make rengar a tanky assassin, but if he's tankier than other assassins, he needs lower damage to compensate, in order to be balanced.

The changes to his ult seem like they will make it completely underpowered, since the whole point is to be stealthy. People will know exactly when he uses it, and who he's going to jump(adc or apc), so you might want to remove the voiceover on activation when hes within 1000 range, or change it to when he comes within 500 range, but make the particle always appear over the enemy's head when rengar can see them, so they have some heads up if they're going to be jumped. you can call the buff unease, or sixth sense, or something. Even then it kinda removes the point of stealth.

rather than work on individual skills, I think first it needs to be decided whether rengar is an ad assassin, or tanky jungler. There really aren't any hybrid items for him, so change that roar scaling to ad, but make it really low (1-5% AD or something).

Another way you could give rengar an escape is to make him invisible for the duration of his ult, except when he attacks, then he could fade out like akali does in her shroud after he attempts to burst the adc. It would give his ult a higher skill cap, because if you use it too early, you wont be able to fade out, and the enemy team will catch you, but if you use it right, you can get in and burst, if not kill, the adc, then attempt to get away. Being attacked would increase the time before you become invisible again, and there are already items to counter stealth, so it would be harder to get away if they buy those items.

I could say more, but the post is long enough, hopefully something I said helps. I don't play rengar personally, but I have played him in the past, and have lots of experience playing with and against rengar's since he came out.


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Frankee

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Member

07-22-2013

Just gonna throw this in. I think Rengar needs a Lion-o ThunderCat's skin. Could be a neat legendary


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Corvic Maractis

Senior Member

07-22-2013

@Xelnath, Scarizard, Wav3

I think i know why the feedback isnt going well. If the three of you would post what "your" definitions of a Bruiser and an Assassin are, no copy pasta please, then we may have the reason for the major disconnect between the players and the devs on the recent reworks.

Second, What is your intended role for Rengar? Assassin or Bruiser/Fighter as we then have to look at what your definition is and compare it to the others and see some of the problem with the design and concepts for the changes.


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Bambouské

Member

07-22-2013

You guys clearly seem to be trying to make rengar a decent jungler as he was probably intended to be at its creation, but you also wanna keep his gameplay oriented toward the offensive being a sort of semi-assassin fighter.

My concern is how can you make him a decent jungler while still allowing him to be played as a "carry" when we are back into the tank-support-aegis-carrier-jungler meta ?
I fear the eternal problem of insane base damage so you can stay relevant with little gold which will lead to full tank items top laners with decent damage while remaining unkillable.

To be honest I would actually prefer an answer toward the jungle rather than rengar himself but since I was very disappointed by how cool he is and how bad his jungling is I am curious about his future in the jungle.