A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Notalent

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Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Save stealth reveal, you have zero warning he's coming (which is the only mitigating factor; it didn't work as an argument for keeping eve way back when and it doesn't work now). You go from doing whatever -> almost dead in the space of about a quarter second. As opposed to 1-2 seconds warning and reaction time.
Which is why I'm fine with him losing his abusive triple q burst.

But if your going to make his ult near useless except as a MS boost and a short range gap closer, then you may as well just give him a different ult, something that has ultimate like power, rather than the power of Eve's W.


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IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Which, knowing Dota's history, zero will get done about that. Maybe he/she'll even get buffed.
Then you don't know much about dota's history. The only times the FOTMs don't get nerfed is when they fade out of popularity on their own (the only real difference between that and league is that Riot doesn't champions enough time to fade out of popularity in the first place, and said champion doesn't actually have to be overpowered to be targeted for nerfs)
Quote:
Also, twitch is squishier than a wet paper rag. Rengar is no tank but 43armor and MR steroid on top of melee base stats IS significant.
The extra ~100 health, 22 MR and 11 armor that Rengar gets is nice, sure. But for the purposes of survivability you don't want to seriously be arguing that it's better than 800 range.
Quote:
And Rengar doesn't have to build AS items to attack quickly post-burst, Twitch has a minimum of one, possibly two slots reserved for AS items.
Both champions are going to be investing most of their item build into DPS.
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And ultimately, EVEN WITH SOTD, Twitch is still dodgeable (they never fixed that) and his burst is over a longer period of time.
A longer period of time only in very fractional numbers at best. It's incredibly disingenuous to talk about how his combo takes "much longer" when we're talking fractions of a second between the two (and ignoring that one of them is going to be doing it to two or three people instead).


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
However, he also dies when you turn and look at him.
And if a melee character wants to have the same damage, that melee character has to build just about as squishy.

Ranged sustained DPS gets damage and built in safety-- it was balanced around other characters being able to instantly 100 to 0 them if they positioned poorly or moved around alone.

If you remove 100-to-0 scenarios from the game, all that damage and safety can become overpowered.

As soon as these mages and assassins can't reliably end the sustained DPS threat, they may become inferior to sustained DPS. See: Ranged AD and Tanky DPS meta.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-21-2013
26 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzokuken View Post
You are kinda wrong
Rengar's strenght is the last of my worries

His predator feel, his fun character is what worries me

When i play Rengar, i do it for the predator feel, for the ambushes, etc
Well, Rengar's feeling remains intact. You are welcome to continue disagreeing with me, so I'm posting this:

Huge Caveats: Balance not done, etc.

I am assuming here that you're using Rengar's ult to jump onto the target as quickly as possible from as close as possible.

Now, if you're coming out of the jungle with 0 combo points and need to wait the full 5 seconds of stealth to charge-up your ferocity, or you want to stealth to avoid a ward, you'll need to stand back a little bit further or be willing to chase them with the warning up. But that situation is preventable.

Here's where you would mark the target from a fast bush gank (click stealth + run) or back lane gank. Keep in mind you also have 10-50% movement speed bonus at this point.

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These gank positions are amazing. Factor in human reaction time and the fact that Rengar can still tower dive and run away, and this stabcat looks like he's great to me.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Ultimately, Riot, Rengar being anything but an assassin doesn't make sense. Assassins kill quickly, they don't sit there and beat their prey over the head until they drop for about 30 seconds. They use stealth to ambush and assassinate quickly. Rengar does that. He is a hunter. Take that away, and you rob him of his identity.

And if you bring gameplay into this, Rengar relies on killing his target quickly, as he's not designed to stay in a fight for very long. He's designed to stalk, ambush and assassinate. He can't stick to targets well. He isn't meant to take 6 seconds to kill someone. You could adjust it so that he can, but then he's just not Rengar. He's generic bruiser #27.

From a fan standpoint, a vast majority of people want Rengar to be an assassin. Why is turning him into a tanky DPS or bruiser even still on the table? I'm not arguing he won't be viable. I'm saying, Rengar fans don't want a bruiser. They want an assassin cat like the one we have now. Riot, I know you CAN balance him as an assassin if you want to. Please don't let us down.


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TwoShacosOneBox

Senior Member

07-21-2013

make him squishier, but do more damage
like leblanc AD form


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Notalent

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Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Well, Rengar's feeling remains intact. You are welcome to continue disagreeing with me, so I'm posting this:

Huge Caveats: Balance not done, etc.

I am assuming here that you're using Rengar's ult to jump onto the target as quickly as possible from as close as possible.

Now, if you're coming out of the jungle with 0 combo points and need to wait the full 5 seconds of stealth to charge-up your ferocity, or you want to stealth to avoid a ward, you'll need to stand back a little bit further or be willing to chase them with the warning up. But that situation is preventable.

Here's where you would get "detected" from a fast bush gank (click stealth + run) or back lane gank. Keep in mind you also have 10-50% movement speed bonus at this point.

Attachment 736189 Attachment 736190

These gank positions are amazing. Factor in human reaction time and the fact that Rengar can still tower dive and run away, and this stabcat looks like he's great to me.
Looking at that, unless E is now a stun, I see that as a waste of an ult. That target is living unless hes got abusive triple q burst or hard cc...

Also again, your saying hes forced to waste half his ult to try sneak past wards with enemies getting enough warning to run for it.


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy242621 View Post
Ultimately, Riot, Rengar being anything but an assassin doesn't make sense. Assassins kill quickly, they don't sit there and beat their prey over the head until they drop for about 30 seconds. They use stealth to ambush and assassinate quickly. Rengar does that. He is a hunter. Take that away, and you rob him of his identity.

And if you bring gameplay into this, Rengar relies on killing his target quickly, as he's not designed to stay in a fight for very long. He's designed to stalk, ambush and assassinate. He can't stick to targets well. He isn't meant to take 6 seconds to kill someone. You could adjust it so that he can, but then he's just not Rengar. He's generic bruiser #27.

From a fan standpoint, a vast majority of people want Rengar to be an assassin. Why is turning him into a tanky DPS or bruiser even still on the table? I'm not arguing he won't be viable. I'm saying, Rengar fans don't want a bruiser. They want an assassin cat like the one we have now. Riot, I know you CAN balance him as an assassin if you want to. Please don't let us down.
He will just dodge you're great response. Riot is completely ignoring we don't want Rengar to be a boring bruiser.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Factor in human reaction time and the fact that Rengar can still tower dive and run away, and this stabcat looks like he's great to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Rengar can still tower dive and run away, and this stabcat looks like he's great to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
and this stabcat looks like he's great to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
stabcat looks like he's great
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
stabcat
God I ****ing love you.


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Mango027

Senior Member

07-21-2013

What does Yorick see in those pictures?