A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Rengar is the only one who breaks the "warning" rule. Furthermore, he doesn't just show up. He shows up and triple Qs you in the worst case. Rengar violates a core value of our design philosophy that exists everywhere else.
Twitch, and he does it to the ENTIRE team, AND from Range (a pretty big ass range of 850 units)

Also, i need to repeat:

Nocturne or TF say they are gonna jump on you, but Nocturne FLIES OVER TERRAIN while stripping out Vision

Twisted Fate appears RIGHT NEXT TO YOU with an stun

What does Rengar do? RUN, he runs until he catches you

Can you seriously stop comparing them and pointing out what Rengar can do to make it look "OP or frustrating" ? because he isnt


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-21-2013
24 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0 View Post
Twitch doesn't warn anyone. And if he's lined up right his combo is liable to do what Rengar does to one person to the entire enemy team.

Oh. And he doesn't even have to put himself at risk to do it.
Twitch causes problems for this reason too. However, he also dies when you turn and look at him. I believe he's one of the most fragile characters in the game. Fighters are not.


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Urzdaym

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey dude, I realize you're just having a bad day and lashing out, but I think you might need to take a step away until you relax again. This isn't a productive argument and I know you are capable of being far more rational.

Rengar's kit looks like a fighter kit to me - sustained damage, no mana costs, free healing, ranged snare. His ultimate is an assassin ultimate though. The point is to resolve that disparity. When you look at other characters with the ability to close onto a target from a long distance away:

TF, Shen, Fiddlesticks, Pantheon, Nocturne, etc. Even Kha'zix to an extent.

They *all* have a warning and telegraph that they are about to do it. Even Eve, the bonafide stealth champ, reveals herself before attacking you. Rengar is the only one who breaks the "warning" rule. Furthermore, he doesn't just show up. He shows up and triple Qs you in the worst case. Rengar violates a core value of our design philosophy that exists everywhere else.

You guys are smart. You realize no-warning stealth is powerful. You also realize that triple Q burst is powerful. That combination is highly frustrating to deal with.

Yes, it's fun to be the one who doesn't follow the rules and frustrate other players. No, it's not okay to say "its fine" and will never be OK to just ignore it.
So Twitch is broken then as well?

Maybe the carry should build some armor.

If he's getting blown up by... An assassin then that's an assassin doing their job. Especially if the target is building 0 defense.

He can't exactly do that to say, Xerath or some other high armor target.


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IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Twitch is problematic too. However, he also dies when you turn and look at him. I believe he's one of the most fragile characters in the game. Fighters are not.
Assassin Rengar is though. His defensive steroid is comparable to Akali's (and I don't think many people would call her tanky) and he has no way to disengage. His item build doesn't really afford for defense until endgame and even then no more than one or two items.

I'd even go as far to say that Twitch has the edge in survivability here because he's 800 range away and Rengar is in the middle of the enemy team.


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Notalent

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Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey dude, I realize you're just having a bad day and lashing out, but I think you might need to take a step away until you relax again. This isn't a productive argument and I know you are capable of being far more rational.

Rengar's kit looks like a fighter kit to me - sustained damage, no mana costs, free healing, ranged snare. His ultimate is an assassin ultimate though. The point is to resolve that disparity. When you look at other characters with the ability to close onto a target from a long distance away:

TF, Shen, Fiddlesticks, Pantheon, Nocturne, etc. Even Kha'zix to an extent.

They *all* have a warning and telegraph that they are about to do it. Even Eve, the bonafide stealth champ, reveals herself before attacking you. Rengar is the only one who breaks the "warning" rule. Furthermore, he doesn't just show up. He shows up and triple Qs you in the worst case. Rengar violates a core value of our design philosophy that exists everywhere else.

You guys are smart. You realize no-warning stealth is powerful. You also realize that triple Q burst is powerful. That combination is highly frustrating to deal with.

Yes, it's fun to be the one who doesn't follow the rules and frustrate other players. No, it's not okay to say "its fine" and will never be OK to just ignore it.
You seem to be dodging the question, what is the point of Rengar's ult, if it gives a big enough warning for people to just turtle up under turret?

I think everyones mostly fine with triple Q dying, but if Rengar's ult just ends up being a glorified stealth check than its useless, and that's what Riot seems to be making it with the idea of a huge area warning and a warning popping up on your head. You may as well just give Rengar a different ult completely if that's your idea for it.


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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Twitch is problematic too. However, he also dies when you turn and look at him. I believe he's one of the most fragile characters in the game. Fighters are not.
Rengar is not a Fighter, he's an assasin and dies probably faster than twitch, because he's melee

Also, you are cattering to extremely bad players, who never buy an oracle's, and who doesnt have the minimal idea of what "peeling" means

Seriously, i've fought many Rengars, and as soon as they show up, they die instantly
And this is when im playing as a carry


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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey dude, I realize you're just having a bad day and lashing out, but I think you might need to take a step away until you relax again. This isn't a productive argument and I know you are capable of being far more rational.

Rengar's kit looks like a fighter kit to me - sustained damage, no mana costs, free healing, ranged snare. His ultimate is an assassin ultimate though. The point is to resolve that disparity. When you look at other characters with the ability to close onto a target from a long distance away:

TF, Shen, Fiddlesticks, Pantheon, Nocturne, etc. Even Kha'zix to an extent.

They *all* have a warning and telegraph that they are about to do it. Even Eve, the bonafide stealth champ, reveals herself before attacking you. Rengar is the only one who breaks the "warning" rule. Furthermore, he doesn't just show up. He shows up and triple Qs you in the worst case. Rengar violates a core value of our design philosophy that exists everywhere else.

You guys are smart. You realize no-warning stealth is powerful. You also realize that triple Q burst is powerful. That combination is highly frustrating to deal with.

Yes, it's fun to be the one who doesn't follow the rules and frustrate other players. No, it's not okay to say "its fine" and will never be OK to just ignore it.
So give the warning to the entire team immediately when he casts it. Doesn't it take him 1.5-2 seconds to enter stealth? This gives everyone a few seconds to react to his ult. However, if you choose to only alert the champion he is nearby, you have effectively destroyed the usefulness of the ult.

It is no longer useful if the guy I am ganking knows that i am ganking his lane and he gets 2 seconds to react before i have even entered stealth.

I posted before and gave the example of twisted fate and nocturne ults as a good comparison. When they ult, everyone on the map is alerted to it, but no one knows where they are about to strike. This is fun gameplay. What you are planning to do to Rengar's ultimate is not.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-21-2013
25 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzokuken View Post
Twitch, and he does it to the ENTIRE team, AND from Range (a pretty big ass range of 850 units)

Also, i need to repeat:

Nocturne or TF say they are gonna jump on you, but Nocturne FLIES OVER TERRAIN while stripping out Vision

Twisted Fate appears RIGHT NEXT TO YOU with an stun

What does Rengar do? RUN, he runs until he catches you

Can you seriously stop comparing them and pointing out what Rengar can do to make it look "OP or frustrating" ? because he isnt
I understand you're scared, upset and worried your favorite champion is going to be harmed. That you are going to be weaker afterwards. Perhaps you've even struggled to prove to people that Rengar is awesome when the world's believed he's so weak for so long.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/79#ranked-stats

Rengar is my 2nd most played character in Season 3. I love the lion cat, I know what he's capable of and I've seen what he can do to players. I played around with him last night. He's still going to be awesome. He's still going to do what he does now. He'll just take a little longer to do it.

He's a core fun character that we're preserving in a fantastic way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanKeaton259 View Post
So give the warning to the entire team immediately when he casts it. Doesn't it take him 1.5-2 seconds to enter stealth? This gives everyone a few seconds to react to his ult. However, if you choose to only alert the champion he is nearby, you have effectively destroyed the usefulness of the ult.ultimate is not.
This is pretty much how it works at rank 3. The radius is huge. It's only the early, unexpected ganks where it will make a difference, but you'll still be able to pull them off. Rengar is gaining combat power, not losing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent View Post
You seem to be dodging the question, what is the point of Rengar's ult, if it gives a big enough warning for people to just turtle up under turret?

I think everyones mostly fine with triple Q dying, but if Rengar's ult just ends up being a glorified stealth check than its useless, and that's what Riot seems to be making it with the idea of a huge area warning and a warning popping up on your head. You may as well just give Rengar a different ult completely if that's your idea for it.
It's still a very powerful movement speed steroid + a gap closer + the enemy can't see which direction you're coming from. I quickly tried it out, stealthing around the wraith camp then going in to gank the enemy laner from behind. Unless he's already playing conservatively, the warning doesn't appear until you're stealthed and the enemy is in your radius.

I'm sure we're still tuning it, but when I went to gank mid, the midlaner didn't see the "icon" until I was already in the lane entrance behind him.

This change is going to be fine.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I understand you're scared, upset and worried your favorite champion is going to be harmed. That you are going to be weaker afterwards. Perhaps you've even struggled to prove to people that Rengar is awesome when the world's believed he's so weak for so long.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/79#ranked-stats

Rengar is my 2nd most played character in Season 3. I love the lion cat, I know what he's capable of and I've seen what he can do to players. I played around with him last night. He's still going to be awesome. He's still going to do what he does now. He'll just take a little longer to do it.

He's a core fun character that we're preserving in a fantastic way.
So is rengar going to be an Assassin instead of a fighter as you describ him? I play Rengar Assassiny. I love the tripple Q leap of faith that he does. I also enjoy playing him in the jungle.

Am I in for some good times?


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Notalent

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Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I understand you're scared, upset and worried your favorite champion is going to be harmed. That you are going to be weaker afterwards. Perhaps you've even struggled to prove to people that Rengar is awesome when the world's believed he's so weak for so long.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/79#ranked-stats

Rengar is my 2nd most played character in Season 3. I love the lion cat, I know what he's capable of and I've seen what he can do to players. I played around with him last night. He's still going to be awesome. He's still going to do what he does now. He'll just take a little longer to do it.

He's a core fun character that we're preserving in a fantastic way.
Your dodging harder then a 6th grader playing Dodge ball. Rengar's ult is currently used from the jungle to get around wards, if Rengar's ult gives a warning, he can no longer do that, which makes his jungle damn near toothless since he doesn't have hard cc or an easy engage.