A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

07-18-2013

... Bolas are not that hard to throw. In fact, because of their wide spread. once thrown, it becomes very difficult to not land on your target. That's kinda why it was an invention in the first place. Because of how easy it was.


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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

07-18-2013

seven year olds can throw bolas. Peter pan op.


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ThreeWolfMoon

Junior Member

07-18-2013

How about adding a bleed effect to his Q?

Lowers the upfront damage, allows counter play through shields, pots etc.
Empowered Q could have an additional benefit like granting vision while target is bleeding, or increased movement speed or something, keeping with the feel of a hunter stalking his prey.
Just a thought.

Suggestion for his ult: have it fear minions in the area for a short time, giving people the heads up he is near without a stupid icon over his head, also fits better with the image of a stalker/hunter who causes the birds to fly out of the trees when he is in the forest.


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Somewhat Human

Junior Member

07-18-2013

If the bolas were a skillshot, I believe they should have good range and should curve like Diana's Cresent Strike. Might be very useful.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

07-18-2013

I honestly can't remember if I posted this already, or not, but I think Rengar's Bonetooth would benefit from no longer losing stacks on death. That is, stacks gained are permanent. With respect to Rengar vs. Kha'Zix, Kha'Zix cannot lose his evolutions. I imagine part of the issue with people seeing it as a snowball item is simply that you can counter it, whereas if you couldn't the feeling wouldn't be so bad.

Also, there should be other ways for Rengar to gain stacks - to further improve it not feeling like it's entirely a specific enemy's fault if he starts gets the stacks up.
- Each time he gets a kill or assist on an epic monster? Dragon, Baron and Vilemaw?
- The first time he kills Ancient Golem and the Lizard Elder?
- Or maybe the first time he kills the *enemy* Ancient Golem and the Lizard Elder?
- Maybe he has a 1/150 chance of finding a trophy when killing lane minions/small monsters (but a "fixed" random where the odds get better each time you fail, so you are "guaranteed" to get it after 150 cs).

The stacks should only ever be worth non-scaling utility. Like the current effects, really, only spread them out maybe?


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HiveCommander

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS156435aec09075615b7ac View Post
How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

It feels thematically very right. Bolas in real life is very hard to throw and hit correctly, so it should definitely be a skill shot.
It would also be very good from a fun perspective, assuming the range and cc gets buffed so it feels impactful when you hit it.
rengars pov: you can cast it around corners when you lose sight of your target, allowing you to catch up. Hitting a long range skill shot is an awesome feeling, especially when you can follow up on it with a lot of bashes.
opponents pov: you can dodge or flash the projectile to nullify a lot of rengars potential. This opens up for a lot of counterplay options that just wasn't there before.

What about this:
E - Bola Strike
Range: 900 (a little shorter than most other cc skillshots)
The projectile would be pretty thin but with a high speed. The same animation as live.
Active: Rengar throws a bola at his target, dealing physical damage and slowing it for 2 seconds. Rengars next auto attack against the target activates his passive, making him leap to the target. (from 600 range)

So basically, a cc skillshot that is pretty small but fast and if you hit it you can leap to the target and follow up with Q spam.

Oh, and if E also gave vision of the target this could be a very fun way to jump over walls to jungle minions, just like akali can with her new vision on W. That would be very very fun.

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

My first thought was that Emp. Bola would root the target instead of slowing it, as well as increasing the damage the target takes from all sources by some % for some duration.

This, however makes very little synergy with the new Q since all your damage comes from spamming that and you can't do that after you cast an empowered E. Is team synergy worth more than skill set cohesion? I don't think so. If E was a skillshot it would also in many cases be hard to hit the right target, thus nullifying the damage bonus. Not good.

To combine with the Q spam thought, empowered E has to be something you want to cast at the end of combat, to disengage or to finish off a fleeing opponent. It could do bonus damage depending on the targets missing hp.
I really like the idea of % missing HP damage on the bola, I support that whole-heartedly. Maybe have the empowered version do that, so it can be used as the 'fatality' of the Q-train combo.

Maybe the regular version could be a slow or root that reduces the target's armour for a few seconds? That would give him some team utility at least. Look at some of the better teamfight champions like Malphite and Wukong. Wukong can stack up a Black Cleaver across the entire enemy team over 2 seconds with his ult, knocks them up, and further reduces the armour of the person hit with his Q by 30%. Malphite has an AOE AS debuff too, in addition to his ult.

AOE debuffs/cc are something that really makes an effective teamfighter. AOE cc would be pretty OP on a champ like Rengar, but I feel the AOE debuff route would be better. His roar could even be a debuff, as opposed to the current tanky steroid. It makes little sense that roaring heals him/makes him harder to kill. The 'intimidation' aspect of it would be cool. Like I said a few pages ago, an AD debuff like Trynd's shout would be pretty cool, and also allows him to be more useful in teamfights.


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Dlaxer

Junior Member

07-18-2013

A couple of things about the proposed changes. Having the proposed ult change will destroy Rengar completely, thematically as well as game play wise. Allowing the enemy team to triangulate your position through an icon above they're heads, or really at all is not the way a predator wants to go about doing things, let alone one whose passive is "Unseen Predator". Not only is this thematically wrong for Rengar, but as stated above, it telegraphs your position to the enemy team, which is the exact opposite of what makes Rengar strong in the first place.

Now I'm not only going to complain, the idea I had that would allow counterplay to an ulted Rengar. Make the icon global. akin to a TF ult, this would create huge amounts of fear in the enemy team while allowing counter play (group up, hug tower, etc.) This I believe is a fair trade off for Rengar, it still allows the surprise factor of a LionBearMan jumping from nowhere and mauling your face off, while not giving his position away easily, simply allowing for the possibility of counter play. Rengar's ganks are fast and out of nowhere, much like a TF ult. Ultimately Rengar with his movement speed increase has arguably the shortest range, psuedo-global ult in game. It creates the sense of fear that he is always around, but is safer than his current state. I honestly see no other way the current proposed change would do anything but make him easily spotted when ulting. Perhaps (Perhaps!!!) if the range on the icon were akin to TF tele range (Reaching 2 lanes or preferably more) but this still might not be enough, and would be too easy to isolate.

Now onto Bolas, If you do make it a skillshot, there should be more benefit to hitting it, the entire point of skillshots are high risk, high reward, you hit it or you waste it. And right now the targeted, while a nice range and slow % would be weak as a skillshot. I'm not saying go crazy with this, but an extra 50-150 range and 10-15% slow would be nice making it something Rengar can actually close on, not simply hope to kinda slow them down with. Keeping empowered a snare would be fair since you burn 5 ferocity and cannot emp q for the damage.


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Xore

Recruiter

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS156435aec09075615b7ac View Post
How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

It feels thematically very right. Bolas in real life is very hard to throw and hit correctly, so it should definitely be a skill shot.
It would also be very good from a fun perspective, assuming the range and cc gets buffed so it feels impactful when you hit it.
rengars pov: you can cast it around corners when you lose sight of your target, allowing you to catch up. Hitting a long range skill shot is an awesome feeling, especially when you can follow up on it with a lot of bashes.
opponents pov: you can dodge or flash the projectile to nullify a lot of rengars potential. This opens up for a lot of counterplay options that just wasn't there before.

What about this:
E - Bola Strike
Range: 900 (a little shorter than most other cc skillshots)
The projectile would be pretty thin but with a high speed. The same animation as live.
Active: Rengar throws a bola at his target, dealing physical damage and slowing it for 2 seconds. Rengars next auto attack against the target activates his passive, making him leap to the target. (from 600 range)

So basically, a cc skillshot that is pretty small but fast and if you hit it you can leap to the target and follow up with Q spam.

Oh, and if E also gave vision of the target this could be a very fun way to jump over walls to jungle minions, just like akali can with her new vision on W. That would be very very fun.

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

My first thought was that Emp. Bola would root the target instead of slowing it, as well as increasing the damage the target takes from all sources by some % for some duration.

This, however makes very little synergy with the new Q since all your damage comes from spamming that and you can't do that after you cast an empowered E. Is team synergy worth more than skill set cohesion? I don't think so. If E was a skillshot it would also in many cases be hard to hit the right target, thus nullifying the damage bonus. Not good.

To combine with the Q spam thought, empowered E has to be something you want to cast at the end of combat, to disengage or to finish off a fleeing opponent. It could do bonus damage depending on the targets missing hp.

If the normal E is a skillshot then does the empowered version also have to be a skillshot? I had a thought that emp. E could be a targeted version of the skill, allowing you to cc and jump to the backline way easier in messy teamfights. This would give you team utility since hitting the backline is often very useful in teamfights. It also gives you a meaningful option - do you want to spend all your ferocity to get to a good position, or do you want to save it for more damage (Q spam)?
I like the sound of it, But Emp Bola should be a skill shout as well. also this is just my OPINION Emp E must have something more than Root, maybe adding a bleed if hit by a Emp Q, but then again We want it Balance and healthy for the game.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venam View Post
Only Rengar inspired me to play Rengar some time ago, and I have since fallen in love with this champion. I sit there watching him play listening to his thought process, and I think he has a lot of good points when it comes to the changes of Rengar, please listen to him Riot.

Ultimate: If his opponents get a warning over their heads when Rengar is ulted and near, why can't he jump on them? He's taken the risk of revealing his position in the game, is it so wrong to get a chance to capitalize on it?
Dude, they are gonna make his ult literally twice as good.

its getting a 5 second duration boost, Almost 3x the Reveal range, DOUBLE the movement speed, AND will have a shorter cooldown.

I actually like the idea of a notification, lets the enemy know im about to eviscerate them. Crowning moment of: "Oh shiiiiiit..... Im screwed"


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Xore

Recruiter

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaDivingPoop View Post

Also another thing making bola a skill shot would make it too easier to juke. At least right now when i go to gank from the jungle with 4 ferocity i can double bola and bait flash with my first one before snaring them with the empowered bola. If it were a skill shot they can just either juke or flash my first attempt and I'm assuming that you wont get the ferocity point for just using the skill if it misses.

Well in this case, if you miss an Emp E it shouldn't consume the 5 ferocity but it should have an X amount CD, so in this way it wont betray on rengar that much and is still be a counter-playable.