A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!
so first question i will answer is the meat wall. I think it works well for him right now because of his lack of base stats. It is the only thing that can help rengar last in a sustained fight. he deffinately should keep some sort of mitigating quality.

now for the real question... Bonetooth necklace. that bummer slot taking item you wish did a little bit more. Its great in the way it affects rengar with each trophy but its lack of real stats makes it feel so odd to get at first I myself have a hard time validating its purchase. 5 attack damage is an insult for something that costs 800 gold. you feel like you wasted that gold at first because you are no stronger after picking it up. 20 attack damage is all it would really need to at least feel like you are getting something out of it while you dont have any trophies. otherwise at least put some basic bonus effects on it even when you have no trophies. if you were to simply put the bonuses gained at 3 trophies as permanent stats it would be much more attractive as well.

In all honesty i kind of feel like bonetooth necklace should just be removed and somehow incorporate it into his ult. or better yet to make it so that you still have to purchase it, but it is consumable item that once used you begin collecting trophies after every kill and assist or perhaps just every kill since it will no longer be taking up an inventory spot.


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Trippeh

Member

07-16-2013

I like rengars current playstyle, id rather not see that go.


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Comedian

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Comedian View Post
I feel like bonetooth necklace should be similar to Elisa's miracle in the sense where it gets consumed at a certain point. Maybe set to either obtaining max stacks or getting to max level depending on which happens first. This allows to remove the attack damage stat for balancing around the effects while keeping it slot efficient by having it be consumed (maybe also increase price to 1000

(leveling up 4/5 times seems like an appropriate number)
Another point I want to add pertains to his W Battle Roar, when he uses it I feel like since he is a hunter he should be using it to intimidate his opponent (or "prey") so instead of boosting his defensive stats (mr/armor) he should be lowering the mr and armor of those hit by it or if that is to strong in team fights just the closest two champions closest to him (but hits all monsters to help jungle0


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Wav3Break

Riot Intern
Quality Assurance

07-16-2013
4 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdMiller View Post
Honestly, Its total AD to me isnt much early on, but as you go in late game, I think maybe scale it a bit better with levels to it flows better.
I honestly love Rengars kit ( I ply him alot) I understand turning him into a duelist but wasnt the point of him an assasin?
Kha'zix and Rengar were suppossed to be two assasins.
So if changing rengar from an assasin to a duelist it feels he loses that niche to me.
Bonetooth is very good. I like the flat Movement speed. It means I can focus on something else instead of level 2 boots instantly
As for the AD stats, i dont think they are that differential.
This is all my opinion though.

I dont mind changes to his kit to change him around form an instagib. But really changing his kit into more of a rework, I feel id lose the way his kit is. I really enjoy the basis of his abilities not regarding the tweaks that need to be done. Same with Bonetooth. I love the concept. I just dont want it too nerfed. Viktor has his item that scaled alot higher then rengars granted he is a mage.

Not to throw a negative spin but if he gets too reworked Id probably want to refund him.
ID prefer not to change the way he plays or his role too much. Assasins are still very few, we dont really need more Bruiser/Duelists.
Let me clarify:

Currently Rengar functions/"performs greatest" as an Assasin/Split pusher. This leads to an incredibly disjointed play pattern as an average game progresses because his kit only offers him one avenue of getting into a late game team fight away from the jungle, his ultimate.

Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.

The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.

With that out of the way, we don't necessarily want to make Rengar into a champion like Renekton(who still has pretty decent burst damage at level 2 mind you) but we do feel his current burst potential, especially at earlier levels is simply too high. It does not take a lot of number crunching to notice that Rengar's mindless level 2 burst combo can deal ~60-70% of the average level 2 champions health pool.

The fact is, on a kit with reset mechanics like Rengar, burst will always exist early on and the challenge for us is to tune it into something healthy/balanced/counter-playable. You should rest easy, Rengar will always be able to knife-cat surprise stab people at stages of the game, we just want to make sure your knife-catting experience isn't unfair or too limiting in later stages of the game.

TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."


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MobiIe Ward

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
We are looking into the power of Bone Tooth Necklace and we will appropriately scale it back to reflect the cooler game play mechanics we intend to attach to it.

Though there is concern that having this kind of stacking/snowball mechanic on Rengar creates a "feast or famine" play pattern, we intend to make Bone Tooth Necklace an item that really accentuates the predator play style of Rengar and not necessarily something that is core for him to function. That being said we want to make Bone Tooth a very attractive option that most Rengar players will feel good about buying despite being behind or ahead.

Getting kills and assists is inevitable in every game and I hope to make Bone Tooth more attractive by giving it more utility on lesser amounts of stacks that help Rengar execute his play pattern of stalker and predator.
It's not core for him to function. I recommend you don't touch this champ if you don't know what you're doing.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
To clarify - i'm still interested in Bonetooth being a stack item that works on kills and assists. As a trophy hunter, it's pretty key to who he is as a character and the reason it was implemented in the first place. My big issue however, is that right now it's purely a snowball item with only one really interesting augment.

I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.
unless it has some sort of decent stats for it to start off with it just wont feel worth while to pick up


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Jassu

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
We are looking into the power of Bone Tooth Necklace and we will appropriately scale it back to reflect the cooler game play mechanics we intend to attach to it.

Though there is concern that having this kind of stacking/snowball mechanic on Rengar creates a "feast or famine" play pattern, we intend to make Bone Tooth Necklace an item that really accentuates the predator play style of Rengar and not necessarily something that is core for him to function. That being said we want to make Bone Tooth a very attractive option that most Rengar players will feel good about buying despite being behind or ahead.

Getting kills and assists is inevitable in every game and I hope to make Bone Tooth more attractive by giving it more utility on lesser amounts of stacks that help Rengar execute his play pattern of stalker and predator.
Stacking items such as Bonetooth Necklace don't reward the player for getting kills so much as they punish the opposing team for dying. You're already dying and giving gold and exp to the enemy team while losing out on gold, exp, and map presence—why punish the player further by giving Rengar extra stats or effects because he happened to have a specific item when he killed you?

There is some counterplay in that killing Rengar will reduce the amount of stacks he has, but now the same issue of additional punishment comes into play again, albeit punishing Rengar this time. The other problem is that he can stack it potentially much faster than you can reduce. He gains one stack for every kill or assist, but only loses one stack on death; that means if he ever enters a fight and gains at least some combination of 2 kills/assists and still dies, he comes out ahead. Naturally, you'd consider increasing the number of stacks lost on death if it's indeed bad, but now you run into another issue: increasing the amount of stacks lost on death incentivizes not dying, which means Rengar players will be more inclined to not fight unless they can come out ahead on stacks—a counterintuitive situation, given that you'd prefer to fight if you're so strong because of the stacks, not avoid fighting for fear of losing them.

Overall, I feel like the stacking mechanic on snowball items is too detrimental for the health of the game to have. I'd honestly like to see Bonetooth Necklace changed into something that doesn't work off stacks gained from kills or assists. You're more likely to create something better for the game and more enjoyable for Rengar players in doing so.


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Ireliateyou

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
-snip-
Toning down his burst for utility buffs sounds fine, but personally I feel the tool he needs for mid-late game is his ultimate. Without it he just feels weak. Right now it's a very hard to use ability due to how long his stealth can be delayed and how long the cooldown is. Lowering the cooldown, possibly in exchange for some power, is something that needs to happen.


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Hippopotamus G

Member

07-16-2013

Yay lets water down another champion!


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ColdMiller

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Well if removing the stacks on bonetooth is happening then I agree on make it a consumable. That way he doesnt have a useless slot. But maybe it takes so many levels to consume like said before at 5. Also thanks for clarifying he wont be changed too drastically.

As people have put really good ideas on here, I particularly like the flat Movement speed. IT just gives him barely over 400 a bit, maybe tone it down a bit then if you feel its too strong to like 15?
Also , more milestones for utility would b nice then in return for some nerfs,, if damage is being lowered quite a bit maybe he can get some small stat ups ( small again). IM interested now that I know his overall kit and feel shouldn't change too much .