A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Flesh Snorkel

Junior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaDivingPoop View Post
what are you even smoking? Only time rengar would max and spam his E is if he's losing lane. If 100 damage every 12 seconds from moderate range is toxic then i think all ranged champs should be deleted from the game.

Also what is up with the sudden increase of supposid rengar mains in here making all these bad suggestions. More then half the people who posted here don't even have that many games with him and all of a sudden they are experts.

E is the mathematically superior skill to level in every use case but one. W provides the most utility, and the same base damage increases per level as Q; anybody who spends five minutes reading Rengar's ability gains per level will understand that in almost every situation, and certainly in all normal lane situations, leveling R>E>W>Q is the superior route in both potential (and, of course, real) damage, utility, and survivability.

I generally rush Brutalizer and Kindlegem - I can have Brutalizer as early as 6 minutes in or as late as 10 minutes, and I almost always have Brutalizer/Kindlegem/Bonetooth/Boots by 15 minutes. Kindle and Brut gives you almost max CDR for the lane phase (32% with 4% from Masteries and whatever % from Runes). If you get 3 stacks that early in the game, you're at 37% without wasting any money on stats you don't want, or missing out on anything super important in your Rune and Mastery page.

With near max CDR, you can spam your E every 5-8 seconds in lane. If you make use of your ferocity correctly, you can throw an E every 3-5 seconds. Once you have some levels in E and some CDR from items, you can start at 4 ferocity and E>wait 2 seconds>Emp E>W>Q>walk away>E. This happens at very little opportunity cost to Rengar. You don't even need to get in range to auto attack or Q, you can simply E>wait 2 seconds>Emp E>W at range>wait 2 seconds>E. If the champ you are facing isn't ranged, or doesn't have a gap-closer, congrats, you just took half their HP and they couldn't touch yours. E is Rengar's highest base damage ability, has a very forgiving range, is not a skill shot, and slows the enemy target, making a follow-up on their end difficult. It's probably the best single trading/harrassing ability in the game, and it is spammable and costs no resources.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Egyptian Freedom

Junior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!

I love bola strike being a skill shot. But please make sure you make it castable while moving, so I don't stop awkwardly while i am chasing someone. As an old rengar player it was sometimes better to keep chasing someone instead of stoping to cast the bola strike! It seems counter intuitive especially if you try to cast it at max range..


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GtGW

Junior Member

07-18-2013

As an avid player of Rengar at the point where he was considered underwhelming or underpowered - I wish to point out that as a character, champion, and skill set; what allures me to Rengar from the numerous matches I've played with him in different roles as far as core components to his identity isn't his instant burst potential or endless chains of gap closing from brush - but the notion of a utility melee character who is also a duelist and scout.

Whilst the nature of stealth in of itself will forever be toxic (the mechanics of stealth and binary nature of melee burst assassins) cannot be resolved in League - there is potential to move away from stealth as a whole; for it is not the defining aspect of Rengar's kit nor should it be.

(Current) Passive: Unseen Predator: Rengar's passive whilst interesting has a rather situational limitation of active application that is reliant on enemy positioning to exploit it; contrasted against two other users of brush mechanics who have the range to continue using it from a relatively safe distance (Nidalee/Caitlyn) and has greater opportunities for them exploit on the basis of their own positioning.

(Proposed) Passive: Unseen Predator: When out of the enemy's line of sight - Rengar gains a movement speed bonus that builds up over a duration of 3 seconds. When Rengar becomes visible to his enemies (champions, minions, wards, or structures) the movement speed bonus will decay over 3 seconds. Additionally - whilst this buff is active - Rengar's next basic attack will allow him to leap at the target if they are outside his natural basic attack range - removing the movement speed bonus entirely until the next instance Rengar breaks line of sight. The subtlety of this ability means as far as map mobility - Rengar can react on a wider scale provided he is careful about how his passive behaves around areas of high visibility which can be counter played by warding and certain abilities respectively. The range of this leap scales with subsequent levels.

(Current) Q - Savagery: At this point in time, savagery is a front loaded DPS ability with high burst in tandem with Rengar's ferocity mechanic. This creates an uneven spike in power that enables him to retain qualities of a melee DPS with assassin level bursts in trades. Considering the relative value of attack speed to Rengar's commitment to the 'fighter' style of gameplay - the damage on this ability needs to be redirected so as it avoid this rather strange synthesis.

(Proposed) Q - Savagery: Retains its attack speed and auto attack timer reset properties; it will have a lower base damage and ad ratio in favor of applying a % armor reduction debuff whilst Rengar retains his Savagery attack speed bonus on basic attacks. This will reward Rengar for committing to an engagement opposed to front-loading his damage before the target can respond and provides synergies between his attack speed steroid.

(Proposed) Empowered Q - Savagery: The damage of empowered Savagery will not be greater than that of the basic Savagery, but instead function as an executioner styled blow that scales upon the target's % missing health as Physical Damage on each and every basic attack whilst empowered Savagery's attack speed buff is active on Rengar. Once again - the attack speed components of both are stackable with one another. This will once again avoid his front-loading of instantaneous damage - but allow him to progressively be rewarded for spending time actively in combat.

(Current) W - Battle Roar: The present iteration of Battle Roar in the past was potent during S2 on the basis of its reset function for a 2.0 AP damage burst in tandem with high resistances; Come S3 - resistances have fallen tremendously in value and the AP variant of its usage has been rendered moot as its full burst ratio is down to 1.6. Regardless of these past instances - it seems that instead of making roar a damaging ability complement - utility would best characterize the existing nuances of Rengar's kit as a trophy hunter that also has some sensibility.

(Proposed) W - Battle Roar: Rengar issues a threatening roar that applies a CC to nearby champion's based on their % current health compared against that of his own %. If the affected target's % health is GREATER OR EQUAL TO Rengar's they are taunted for the duration of this ability. If however, the target's % health is lower than that of Rengar's % health, they are instead feared for half the duration. Additionally; this ability will innately provide % DR for each champion CCed by Rengar.

As a side note; to avoid abuse cases of chained CC from the normal and empowered variant; this ability will mark enemy champions - causing them to become immune to the effects of this CC again within X seconds of itself.

When this ability is applied to minions, neutrals, and pets - it will instead apply a debuff to those units that will reduce their damage by a flat value based upon Rengar's level (thus addressing its use in jungle or in lane, whilst avoiding the ability to potential tank Baron/Dragon respectively with little to no repercussions).

With the damage removal - the utilitarian nature of this ability will separately give a) functionality that Rengar is currently limited by and b) avoid allowing his ferocity and resourceless mechanics encouraging attrition warfare to win.

(Proposed) Empowered W - Battle Roar: In addition to its base effects of CC and DR respectively; instead of its front loaded burst of healing which often allows Rengar to gain a vicious reversal with his rather attrition reliant style of play; I propose a % maximum health restoration that is applied over a number of seconds. Not only will this extend a window of time to counter play with additional bursts of damage - but things that apply grievous wounds can significantly mitigate its use as a sustain tool. I am tentatively considering the duration of this heal to be applied over 8-10 seconds on the basis of making it relevant to a fight without it being overwhelming like Mundo's Sadism or Volibear's Chosen of the Storm.

(Current) E - Bola Strike: The current iteration of Bola Strike being an essential 'safe' spell with its target component means its reward system is lower on the basis of reliability. Additionally; as a laner - this ability is typically maxed out as its non-lane pushing harassment that has very few windows for counter play and is in of itself rather lack lustre as a skill.

(Proposed) E - Bola Strike: A linear collision skillshot variant can increase the payout for successfully landing the ability - and secondly; enables proper positioning to affect its impact for damage and utility. The proposition I have on Bola Strike is as follows; linear collision skillshot - damage of the ability decreases with distance traveled whilst CC duration increases. The normal variant will apply a movement and attack speed slow. The empowered variant will root and disable the target from making basic attacks. The CC duration will be from a minimum of 1 to a max of 3 seconds - factoring distance making it a feasible tool for capturing targets out of position.

(Current) Thrill of the Hunt: The mechanics of stealth as a whole are quite toxic on the basis it does not offer much counter play compounded by Rengar's former frontal payload of damage, made him a binary champion in the usage of his triple Savagery application to break squishies. The other toxic aspect of this ability was its essential one-shot wonder application; ending its duration upon breaking stealth.

(Proposed) Thrill of the Hunt: Removing the stealth component and instead making this an essential enabler of Rengar's fullest potential. Whilst active - Rengar's passive movement speed component will NOT be lost upon making basic attacks or becoming visible to the enemy, though halving the range of the leaps during this ultimate. Additionally; it will retain its ability to see enemies through the Fog of War for the full duration, something his old iteration would lose upon breaking stealth. Lastly, Ferocity will be awarded at a slower pace for a prolonged duration on Thrill of the Hunt making it a more team fight oriented ultimate that enables Rengar to manuever around the battlefield and utilize his empowered abilities for multiple situations. And true to its name - the duration of this ability should be lengthened for kills and assists as it is a keystone to opening up Rengar's options without making him toxic or shutting out effective counterplay.

Please give me your thoughts and ideas concerning this take on Rengar - and perhaps one day, he will be able to walk the Fields of Justice drawing the admiration, respect, and fear he is most deserving of as the Pridestalker.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iridos

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!
Wanted to note real quick that the Q combo being so rewarding is going to make it extremely difficult to justify using his emp W to sustain in jungle, and that's one of his current strengths as a jungler... he comes out of the jungle at decent health almost any time, which makes him dangerous to counterjungle and good at coming out to help nearby lanes in trouble.

Also, answer to your questions:

Bola Strike as skill shot would be a huge power boost. Rengar tries to play in and around bushes already, so people have a certain amount of juking opportunity getting away from Bola right now. I actually feel like this would be too much of an improvement for Rengar.

I feel like Emp Bola Strike already brings a lot of teamfight utility... it lets you force teamfights. Past that, the direction you seem to be taking him isn't really teamfight oriented, and making his cc more teamfight applicable would probably come with nerfing it in some way, so... I guess I'm not seeing it, unless it was changed to allow more effective tanking for teamfights.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mirage Night

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post

TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."
Wrong. This is why I am really starting to hate this game.

Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = Good.

Currently there is no direct counter play to RDACs in this game. Right now assassins with High burst potential are really the only way to counter play the overly OP use of this RADCs. True Stealth/High champions are really needed for that reason. Rengar and a few other assassins (Zed, and Khazix's) Really are the only way to counter this. Can effectively re balance team fights because of this.

And frankly, Riot is starting to really lose gri[p what any other player would consider a true assassins. Rengar, Zed, Kha Zix, and Old Eve are what I really consider true assassins.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Griiffy

Member

07-18-2013

LOL so many people are trying to make him OP. Yeah let's give him a empowered e that is a sejuani ult combined with threshes slow... STAHP


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Flandag

Senior Member

07-18-2013

I made at thread about this, but figured I should post here as well.

I think Riot did a good job with Evelynn's stealth but that wouldn't really work with Rengar... or could it? Maybe a modified version? Here's my idea. Granted I have no real numbers planned so just bare with me.

Increase the jump radius off his ult substantially. However, 1. reveal him after he leaps roughly 50% the distance of his target. However, the instant he leaps, give his target a signal that they're being targeted. Basically, it's sort of a different version of what Riot's planning but a bit more "Rengar-ish." It gives the target a split second to react... therefore if you're skillful enough you can do... something... about it, but it still keeps the element of surprise.

What do you guys think?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iForgot Flash

Junior Member

07-18-2013

How about in addition to the nerfs to his Ultimate, you make it so it can be cast more than once in X amount of seconds or whatever, maybe something like Xeraths where his can be cast 3 times in 12 seconds or whatever it is, but maybe rengars can do 2 times in X seconds, that way you guys can tone down his damage and itll make him more of an assassin that doesnt need to secure a kill in 1-2 seconds like you said.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Remain Insane

Junior Member

07-18-2013

I think I like the idea of having bola be a skill shot, give it a large hit box. One thing I notice while playing rengar, that when you ult, and you are going into to kill a target, things happen extremely fast. If you are trying to kill cait or ez, they are going to dash away almost right after you land your double q, and it can be difficult to then click on them with bola. I am not an OSU or whatever master, but it would be nice to unload your entire kit without having to keep your cursor chasing after them. I hope this makes a little sense.
*But at the same time, if laning phase goes badly, you need that target-able bola to farm, or even harass enemy champ behind creep, so maybe not a good idea on second thought.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Moiser

Junior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!
How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

It feels thematically very right. Bolas in real life is very hard to throw and hit correctly, so it should definitely be a skill shot.
It would also be very good from a fun perspective, assuming the range and cc gets buffed so it feels impactful when you hit it.
rengars pov: you can cast it around corners when you lose sight of your target, allowing you to catch up. Hitting a long range skill shot is an awesome feeling, especially when you can follow up on it with a lot of bashes.
opponents pov: you can dodge or flash the projectile to nullify a lot of rengars potential. This opens up for a lot of counterplay options that just wasn't there before.

What about this:
E - Bola Strike
Range: 900 (a little shorter than most other cc skillshots)
The projectile would be pretty thin but with a high speed. The same animation as live.
Active: Rengar throws a bola at his target, dealing physical damage and slowing it for 2 seconds. Rengars next auto attack against the target activates his passive, making him leap to the target. (from 600 range)

So basically, a cc skillshot that is pretty small but fast and if you hit it you can leap to the target and follow up with Q spam.

Oh, and if E also gave vision of the target this could be a very fun way to jump over walls to jungle minions, just like akali can with her new vision on W. That would be very very fun.

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

My first thought was that Emp. Bola would root the target instead of slowing it, as well as increasing the damage the target takes from all sources by some % for some duration.

This, however makes very little synergy with the new Q since all your damage comes from spamming that and you can't do that after you cast an empowered E. Is team synergy worth more than skill set cohesion? I don't think so. If E was a skillshot it would also in many cases be hard to hit the right target, thus nullifying the damage bonus. Not good.

To combine with the Q spam thought, empowered E has to be something you want to cast at the end of combat, to disengage or to finish off a fleeing opponent. It could do bonus damage depending on the targets missing hp.

If the normal E is a skillshot then does the empowered version also have to be a skillshot? I had a thought that emp. E could be a targeted version of the skill, allowing you to cc and jump to the backline way easier in messy teamfights. This would give you team utility since hitting the backline is often very useful in teamfights. It also gives you a meaningful option - do you want to spend all your ferocity to get to a good position, or do you want to save it for more damage (Q spam)?



Other thoughts on rengars kit:
1) Passive should have a short cooldown (2-3seconds). If rengar jumps on you from stealth when you stand in a brush you have no way to escape: if you flash away he instantly have another jump ready. Not fun.
2) All spells should be noticable. When you cast W you notice the damage but not the resist buff. Compare with leonas W that is super noticable on both the buff and the damage. Leonas W is way more fun to use than rengars W, just for this reason. Whatever the buff on the final rengar W will do, please make a noticeable indicator for when its up.