A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Sjafi

Senior Member

07-18-2013

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

Varus-style skill shot. Rengar winds up the bola, spinning it faster and faster, increasing the range.

SICK!!!


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Kizuna

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Senior Member

07-18-2013

Seriously, do NOT make Bola a goddamn skillshot.

Empowered Bola is THE lynchpin that lets Rengar pindown a mobile target and kill it. I do NOT EVER EVER EVER want a ****ing minion or tank to body block that lockdown. EVER. I don't CARE what buffs it could get to "compensate", NO. Do NOT change Bola to a skillshot.


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Mister Corpsman

Junior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotBuzzJack View Post
How about bonus %hp regen when not visible to the enemy? Although this would make him a lot like Slark from Dota, that's not necessarily a bad thing since Slark is fun.
HP regen is in LOL is mostly kept to a minimum with baron buff and warmogs, giving this to rengar would make him unstoppable in the junge


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Flesh Snorkel

Junior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

As long as Q isn't the clear-cut choice to level in lane (right now E is the best choice in lane in almost all situations, but that isn't exactly obvious) I think making E a very fast, line skill-shot is an amazing idea. On live, Rengar's E spam is ridiculously toxic in lane. If there was a skill based element to it I think it'd be totally fine.

Two concerns:

First, if the Bola Strike is a skillshot, Rengar wouldn't be able to root juicy targets if there are other targets blocking for it. I think that kind of sucks. Second, E would have to pass through minions (or risk being worthless in lane); this will hurt Rengar's farming. If there could be an added skill element to Bola Strike without limiting its use in lane and in teamfights I would be ecstatic.

Suggestion: give Bola Strike the Nidalee spear treatment (or some other conditional based modifier), so the farther away you are when you E the more damage it does. Or something else in a similar train of thought. One other suggestion is to reduce the damage that E does, but add an effect to the Unseen Predator auto attack (Pounce) that says, "Does X additional damage per level if you leap on to a slowed target".

And furthermore, it sounds like y'all are buffing his damage at the cost of his base stats. I like having base stats attached to W but there are times where Rengar loses out on the power-curve war, and loses hard. Irelia can 100-0 a fed Rengar at level 9-11 with just a cutlass, or worse, a BotRK. You can be 50cs ahead of a Reneky but once he gets level 11 with a Sunfire Cape/Burt, or Randuins/Brut, you wil never compete with that damage.

In lane, Rengar's base stats and damange lend strongly to a heavy harass, no engage play style. You generally lose long engages, but your harass with E is almost unparelled (Kennen is close, but he has to actually land Q). The way I played Rengar to Diamond was to spam E until the other laner has to either back, risk getting dived, or risk getting outright instagibbed from bush or ult. And that's because Rengar's base stats don't lend themselves to any other type of playstyle. You can't go toe-to-toe with most tops. You have to use your CDs appropriately.

But after lane phase ends, the opposite happens. Rengar barely has the beef or sustain (even with a defensive item or two) to sit there and trade in stand-offs or sieges because keeping ferocity up without minions is next to impossible. Throwing an E does nothing when you're sieging on more than one person - so he has to sit in the back and do absolutely nothing until a kill opportunity arises. Rengar is currently rewarded for going in to battle with ferocity generation and stats (attspd, armor, mr, hp) but he gets othing in a sieging situation. If his team can't push the other team off the tower without him, it's a risk for Rengar to even hit the tower.

I don't know what to suggest to fix that, but damage really isn't Rengar's problem - his use cases for that damageare. IT sounds like you guys are making some great changes, and I look forward to seeing the final product!

If y'all are interested in more (and better.. I suck at posts) feedback, my current ign is Flesh Snorkel. Thanks, guys.


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ChocoKelly

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
So i'm finishing up packing and heading to bed before my flight in the morning (For those of you who missed the previous post, i'm heading the Spain for the EU Pro Player conference for a couple of days) but wanted to let you guys know about the iteration we just clocked - while i won't be around for playtests on thursday or friday, Wav3break will be tuning numbers and driving it while i'm gone.

I'll update the original post as well, but the changes look something like:

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.

Empowered Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.

So what does this mean? Basically, Rengar's Empowered Savagery sets him up for a potential Ryze-like spell chain. Feedback from this thread has been that (Triple Q or no), you guys really like stabbing. With this setup, you can Q2 -> Q, W, -> Q2, E. Q ->Q2 again, with a higher degree of Attack Speed than before. I've played around with the changes a bit with a few people and i have to say it looks pretty awesome tbh. You lie in wait, ready for the kill....and then you proceed to maul your target's face off.

Another cool thing about the 'Q-Train' as Volty calls it, is that you can end the cycle at any point with Empowered Battle Roar or Emp. Bola strike and call it a day, winning trades or flatly disengaging. We still need to see what this does in laning situations, but from i can tell it drastically increases his engagement windows but highly rewards him for 'keeping up' his combos - all while hacking away like a madman.

I suspect it will be slightly OP with this version, but we can always tune. One idea we had is to slightly lower the damage further of Empowered Savagery, but instead have it apply a debuff making your next Emp. Savagery deal 50% more damage (probably only stacks 3 times?). This option feels unnecessary at -this- point, but can proceed to it if his laning is obnoxious but we like the pattern of Q2. Also drives home a lot of the 'single-target mauling predator' feel if you can single out your prey and make their lives hell.

Feeling more confident about this version, but everything is always subject to change. Could possibly see Bola's slow% being increased to accomodate Rengar's knifing around if he's having too much trouble gettin' to the folks he needs. Looking into using Battle Roar as a slot to provide a mechanic that helps him survive endgame without making his solo/dueling cases feel unbeatable - some of you guys have suggested a Wukong-like 'Less defense, but stacking with nearby targets' and i'd like to try it and see how it goes.

Even to those who think i'm not listening - your voices not going unheard. Thanks again for all of your posts, y'all.

EDIT BECAUSE DOUBLEPOSTING IS TACKY -


Catching this before i leave - i think something like this sounds really cool. I know i mentioned earlier that we were looking at +MS% in brush. What do people think about similar version?

'Rengar gains X movement speed while not visible to the enemy team (or out of combat). This bonus is doubled while Rengar is in brush.' ?

A lot of the bonetooth ideas specifically have been pretty interesting - Wav3break's heavy lifting is going to be focused on BTN, but i'll make sure to keep passing these along.
I think Triple Q not that unfair, Just like Karthus's E Glitch. But whatever, Better nerf Rengar.


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The McSmashy

Senior Member

07-18-2013

What if people snared by Bola strike could be jumped to with Rengars passive? Maybe as a Bonetooth Necklace perk?


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Kenzai

Recruiter

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The McSmashy View Post
What if people snared by Bola strike could be jumped to with Rengars passive? Maybe as a Bonetooth Necklace perk?
This is an amazing idea, actually. I really like the idea of anything increasing Rengar's skill floor/ skill ceiling and making him more unique as a hunter archetype.


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flesh Snorkel View Post
live, Rengar's E spam is ridiculously toxic in lane.
what are you even smoking? Only time rengar would max and spam his E is if he's losing lane. If 100 damage every 12 seconds from moderate range is toxic then i think all ranged champs should be deleted from the game.

Also what is up with the sudden increase of supposid rengar mains in here making all these bad suggestions. More then half the people who posted here don't even have that many games with him and all of a sudden they are experts.


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IcyOps

Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Just to buffer Scarizard's post, I am currently tuning the new "Q-Train" destroyer knife cat damage window and I'm not gonna lie, this thing feels freaking awesome to pull off. You will knife more than you ever could and stab peoples faces like no tomorrow. Now time to balance and test it more :P. Again everything is subject to change.

I would also like to ask some questions:

How would you guys feel about Bola Strike being a skill shot?

How would you guys feel about Empowered Bola Strike bringing a little bit more team utility?

P.S. I think Bone Tooth is feeling pretty healthy building out of a Hunter's machete for all of you jungle Rangos out there .

Continue to give us great ideas guys we will continue to iterate and try our best to make sure Rengar becomes an awesome and healthy character!
If Bola Strike becomes a skill shot then he will will be a Shyvana with leaps and cc. Think about it. Also if you make it a skillshot then the power level must be increased according to Riot's logic: More risk = more reward. But this will make him less frustrating to play against, because with proper mechanics you can dodge his E and just focus on working around his burst. I really like the Q train though, seems very thematic, just worried about the numbers.


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Kenzai

Recruiter

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaDivingPoop View Post
what are you even smoking? Only time rengar would max and spam his E is if he's losing lane. If 100 damage every 12 seconds from moderate range is toxic then i think all ranged champs should be deleted from the game.

Also what is up with the sudden increase of supposid rengar mains in here making all these bad suggestions. More then half the people who posted here don't even have that many games with him and all of a sudden they are experts.
I don't like to make posts like this, but you are wrong. Here is a breakdown of the benefits of leveling each ability:

Q: 120 extra damage and 20% (non-empowered) to 40% (empowered) attack speed, and 2 seconds off the total cooldown.

W: 120 extra damage and 28 more Armor and Magic Resistance for 3 seconds after shouting, and 4 seconds off the total cooldown.

E: 180 damage, slow becomes 20% greater, and 4 seconds off the total cooldown.

Contrary to popular belief, leveling Q is quite weak as it offers only 2 seconds off the total CD and ties for the least amount of damage per skill point. It is best in almost every single situation to max E first for the harass and then dump Ferocity into Q for damage, W after trades, and into E for double E harass (especially under their tower where you can't trade otherwise).