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PBE - Jayce [Update 4: 07/16/2013] - [Delayed till 3.11? 3.12?]

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Gidoru

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Any chance of atleast slighly undoing the nerf to E with these changes? Even lowering it by a couple of seconds to 14 or 13 at max rank? 16 seconds was an excessive nerf, but since you're fixing his 'abuse cases' in the rest of the kit shouldnt it allow for the cooldown to be slightly lower?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Thundering Blow! costing a ton of mana


And you believe this won't cause Jayce to want to build mana?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-12-2013

Quote:

So then what becomes important for Jayce in terms of items? If a player focused on all his abilities in all forms and didn't bank on pokey ranged, would Jayce even need to bank on mana and mana regen items? I totally get if that was the case, but having that little extra longevity with some extra mana and mp/5 still sounds like a nice thing to grab (and Muramana has all the stats that Jayce really wants, unless Static Field can really benefit from the AP from Athene's or something).
Jayce really only has a few needs - AD, CDR and Mana if he wants to perform in a ranged/poke capacity. So he's still definitely going to get Tears early on in lane if he chooses to depend on a delayed harass capacity as most of the mana costs are shifted to penalize this particular playstyle that simply involves waiting on tear.

Hopefully though, after cleaning up enough of Jayce's kit - we open enough space where if he is focusing on Shock Blast, TTS!, Static Field and Acceleration Gate rather than Hyper Charge and Thundering Blow! - we might open back up the opportunity for Jayce to be played as a Tri-Force (or possibly Iceborne Gauntlet) style melee Jayce that we saw at the end of S2 - based on what the player wants out of Jayce.

We usually don't attempt to balance for two playstyles on a character and try to go for a unifying one playstyle that plays better - but I mean, it's Jayce - it's kind of his entire theme. While that might be a fantasy - at least reducing the power difference between the two builds and allowing both of them to be played in most settings will be an overall net gain - rather than continuously flat nerfing Jayce until the ranged form is the only thing that can be played and the bruiser version is silly at best.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-12-2013

You know Xypherous, it seem like you may be trying to preserve every mechanic that makes Jayce overpowered--

Just changing the cost a bit.

But will recosting things be enough to remove the infuriation that the mechanics can cause?

Or will it simply force players to itemize even more obtusely to maintain those mechanics?


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queese

Junior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Jayce really only has a few needs - AD, CDR and Mana if he wants to perform in a ranged/poke capacity. So he's still definitely going to get Tears early on in lane if he chooses to depend on a delayed harass capacity as most of the mana costs are shifted to penalize this particular playstyle that simply involves waiting on tear.

Hopefully though, after cleaning up enough of Jayce's kit - we open enough space where if he is focusing on Shock Blast, TTS!, Static Field and Acceleration Gate rather than Hyper Charge and Thundering Blow! - we might open back up the opportunity for Jayce to be played as a Tri-Force (or possibly Iceborne Gauntlet) style melee Jayce that we saw at the end of S2 - based on what the player wants out of Jayce.

We usually don't attempt to balance for two playstyles on a character and try to go for a unifying one playstyle that plays better - but I mean, it's Jayce - it's kind of his entire theme. While that might be a fantasy - at least reducing the power difference between the two builds and allowing both of them to be played in most settings will be an overall net gain - rather than continuously flat nerfing Jayce until the ranged form is the only thing that can be played and the bruiser version is silly at best.


On the Shock Blast decay, how does changing the value form 1550 to around maybe 1850 sound near the end of flight??


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
we open enough space where if he is focusing on Shock Blast, TTS!, Static Field and Acceleration Gate rather than Hyper Charge and Thundering Blow!


Static Field and Hyper Charge are leveled together-- unless you've changed that.

Thundering Blow and To The Skies also have pretty reasonable synergy. But of course Thundering Blow doesn't really require levels for a lot of that.

So you can fairly easily maintain reasonably full usage of Acceleration Gate and Thundering Blow with a single point, while maximizing his other damaging systems at the moment.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Let's consider what would happen to Jayce if we simply nerfed Muramana and called it a day.

Most likely - Jayce would still need to purchase Muramana - because all the nerfs tied to Jayce have lowered the effectiveness of all builds - because the way his skills and costs are set up, a spammy mana based build based around stacking tons of Attack Damage ratios would still be the way to go.

So at the end of the day, Bruiser Jayce would still be bad - it's just that Muramana Jayce would be equally bad.



I don't think that's necessarily true, without muramana Jayce was still picked in tournaments for top lane, he still brings a lot of utility and early game harass. It would change him back to his original S2 strengths and weaknesses ; Early game bully; late game a subpar adc with a decent/good poke. Hyper charge didn't become an abusive ability until it was utilized with Muramana, same with his hammer form E; it didn't seem as scary until it proc'ed muramana.

Idk if it is possible or disregard this if you have already done so, but have you ever tried to play Jayce without muramana/with a nerfed muramana i.e. reduce to 2%/1% of total mana or return it to magical damage? IDK if you have a private server where you can practice/test such a change.

I've played Jayce without muramana a few times again, he feels exactly like he did in S2 and not that many people complained/pros did not claim he was OP/a game winner.

I'm a strong advocate for the muramana nerf because I honestly see it as a solution to everyone's mana problems while at the same time providing an obscene amount of damage for such a low item cost, imo.


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yoshiwaan

Member

07-12-2013

Hi Xypherous.

I know you like quick questions that you can provide quick answers to, so here's one:

Did you decide in the end to increase the missile speed on Jayce's NOT GATED ranged Q, so that it is better to use in general?

How about a charge up system for ranged Q (to increase the range, ALA Varus/New Xerath) so that you can have an entirely different interaction with Ranged Q->E and gate the power there (no pun intended, or was it?!)


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El Naphtali

Member

07-12-2013

Xyph, please don't set Jayce up to be another triforce/witz auto attacker. Even when people were playing hm like that, his strengths have always been towards AD & CDR. They were doin' it wrong because they saw it in the champ spotlight.

Also, Jayce has been played AD/CDR/Crit without mana for over a year on Dominion to the point where he was breaking the game mode (not as bad as Kassadin) as he is on live. Surprised it took until muramana for SR to catch onto that.

That said the tweaks you've proposed to balance him look good so far and I will definitely try them out on the PBE.


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Robin Sekai

Member

07-12-2013

AD version of RoA?