Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


PBE - Jayce [Update 4: 07/16/2013] - [Delayed till 3.11? 3.12?]

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

Question: Was any of this inspired by Dominion? We've seen these problems basically since Jayce's release.

They look good so far. I'm not sold that Hyper Charge will be fixed after this, but it looks promising.
I generally don't look at Dominion for changes because I'm more of a theoretical designer rather than a solve the current problems one.

Quote:

so at rank 6 in a skill it will do more damage than most other champs rank 5 skills? because if that isnt the case you cant reach your true rank 5 damage till lvl 10.
We'll see based on tuning - no guarantees yet here.

Quote:

So is distributing the power through 6 levels of skill a solution for that weird power curve?


Not particularly. In this case, it's just a simple recognition that there was no amount of passive power that we could put on Jayce's Transform level ups to actually make it feel worthwhile to rank up unless we went to ridiculous overpowered passive stat land.

He also didn't need any *more* complicated mechanics to get him through - so the simplest solution here was to simply stop trying to make Transform a compelling level up and just rebalance his spells around assuming people simply weren't going to put points in Transform anyway.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

enderkin

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Hi Xypherous,

I am concerned about many things concerning Jayce, but one thing that caught my eye in your post above was your desire to make Hammer Stance attacks do primarily magic damage.

One thing that I find particularly annoying about Jayce is that even as a heavy anti-AD tank like Malphite building straight defensive armor items, Jayce always seems to have ways to kill me from full. That is to say, even with equal items and levels, Jayce can still out-range, out-poke, out-maneuver, and then flat-out all-in me at almost all points in the game.

Part of my frustration comes from the fact that his Thundering Blow does absolutely insane amounts of magic damage that is not only percent of max health, but scaled 1-to-1 with bonus AD. Do you have any concerns that the further shift of To-the-Skies magic damage with 'vastly increased base damages' will be an unnecessary buff? I am afraid that while I will see a Jayce with some lower damage on his truly problematic abilities, I will also see a Jayce that will be impossible to defend against in top lane and thus still difficult to deal with.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

Part of my frustration comes from the fact that his Thundering Blow does absolutely insane amounts of magic damage that is not only percent of max health, but scaled 1-to-1 with bonus AD. Do you have any concerns that the further shift of To-the-Skies magic damage with 'vastly increased base damages' will be an unnecessary buff? I am afraid that while I will see a Jayce with some lower damage on his truly problematic abilities, I will also see a Jayce that will be impossible to defend against in top lane and thus still difficult to deal with.
I suspect that this is true somewhat - though lane tests right now seem to indicate that Jayce really needs to use all his abilities well in order to do well. We have a couple of other minor changes as well such as reducing his health regeneration in favor of more mana regeneration as he should really win the lane by using his abilities on you a bunch.

I'm not sure I have a whole lot to assuage your fears, other than the fact that I just ripped off 1.0 Bonus AD scaling from his Q, reduced the levelups on his 'W' TAD scaling, roughly 5% armor shred in his early game. While I'm sure that Jayce will have a great deal of magic damage punch to him in his Hammer form - I'm not sure that his first couple of purchases will actually cause the lane to be unconquerable.

Essentially - I do think he will be harder to itemize against but most of the changes are targetted at limiting abuse cases when he's ahead and figuring out where the balance lies in that paradigm.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CynicalGiant

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Finally Jayce gets adjusted.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Splinterheart

Senior Member

07-11-2013

AP Melee Jayce gonna be any good now? :P
On another note, the changes are interesting. I look forward to testing these. My friend who plays fotm Jayce is just a bit sad though ^^


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:

We'll see based on tuning - no guarantees yet here.


fair enough. Im just trying to look at this objectively from both sides.
I just wanted to add that I understand your viewpoint that you are leveling 2 different skills at the same time and that doing that in comparison to other champs should take slightly longer. in that way it makes some sense, the overall playerbase may not see it that way no matter how well you describe it though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

AP Melee Jayce gonna be any good now? :P
If anything, possibly Magic Pen / Off-Tank Jayce?

Quote:

My friend who plays fotm Jayce is just a bit sad though ^^
The FoTM Jayce is a good playstyle - it just needs a bit more counterplay - which is why we opted to really target some of the more esoteric high end abuse cases like 'W' priming.

Quote:

I just wanted to add that I understand your viewpoint that you are leveling 2 different skills at the same time and that doing that in comparison to other champs should take slightly longer. in that way it makes some sense, the overall playerbase may not see it that way no matter how well you describe it though.
No - you're right. It's still important that each level-up still feel good, regardless of what form you're in. When you hit rank 6 and have the same base damages as other people's rank 5's - it just means that those level-ups you got along the way were awful. You would level up 'E' on Karma and get 40 shield compared to Janna's 55 and seriously question why you are putting points in skills. :P

For example, Acceleration Gate right now feels like M'eh with a side of Blah - even if it definitely needed the longer cooldown. Still thinking on that though - as Acceleration Gate just doesn't have anything that it seems we can make scale up to the extent that it should.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CynicalGiant

Senior Member

07-11-2013

How do you feel about his passive giving him random movement speed boosts that scale so well with the speed gate?

Why would Jayce players want to spam through their form changes before getting in lane anyway?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Phonike the 2nd

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
I suspect that this is true somewhat - though lane tests right now seem to indicate that Jayce really needs to use all his abilities well in order to do well. We have a couple of other minor changes as well such as reducing his health regeneration in favor of more mana regeneration as he should really win the lane by using his abilities on you a bunch.

I'm not sure I have a whole lot to assuage your fears, other than the fact that I just ripped off 1.0 Bonus AD scaling from his Q, reduced the levelups on his 'W' TAD scaling, roughly 5% armor shred in his early game. While I'm sure that Jayce will have a great deal of magic damage punch to him in his Hammer form - I'm not sure that his first couple of purchases will actually cause the lane to be unconquerable.

Essentially - I do think he will be harder to itemize against but most of the changes are targetted at limiting abuse cases when he's ahead and figuring out where the balance lies in that paradigm.


What do you think about swapping his Q augmentation. Q by itself does explosive AOE damage great for farming minions less skill / aiming / mana required, Q with Acceleration does concentrated single target damage.

More skill, mana, risk required for more damage. Instead of the opposite.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

What do you think about swapping his Q augmentation. Q by itself does explosive AOE damage great for farming minions less skill / aiming / mana required, Q with Acceleration does concentrated single target damage.
Oh - Interesting.

So, the unfocused ball hits the gate and turns into a piercing beam?

That kind of change I definitely can't get out in the timeframe required for this change - but that's actually something we should look into as to whether that pattern makes more sense.