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PBE - Jayce [Update 4: 07/16/2013] - [Delayed till 3.11? 3.12?]

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Arclight Thresh

Senior Member

07-11-2013

This is kinda a question along with the lines of form changers in general. Why is it that Elise and Jayce have their form change at level 1 and don't have to put a point in it but Nidalee doesn't have her form change at level 1?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

Normalizing his Q speed to be the same regardless of where the gate is placed is the same thing as homogenizing and I'm not a fan. If this game is in dire need of something, it's mechanics that allow for players to differentiate skill from one another. Watering everything down for the sake of simplicity is not the way to go.
Placing Gate mid-flight is actually the strongest way to use a deccelerating shock blast because of the telegraph time.

We're making the Q speed to be roughly agnostic to where the gate is placed doesn't mean that casting gate after Q is worse. In fact, this case still gives the opponent less time to react to Q's speed.

Making the position of the gate agnostic creates a trade-off here that takes more skill to appreciate. Currently, the best use of gate is to cast it right at Jayce's feet. This means that acceleration gate has very little trade-offs for Jayce - you get both the super fast poke and the burst of movement speed to reposition. By making the gate position agnostic of travel time but making it so that there is less telegraphing by casting the gate forward - there should be a tension between how dodgeable you want that Q to be and how much you want to retreat.

Quote:

Why butcher a champion's kit before allowing some time to pass to see if the last number tweaks did their job? Sorry, but these changes make no sense to me. I watch all the pro streams and nearly all of them are in agreement that the latest Jayce nerfs that just hit live were substantial (40% longer gate CD, 25% longer to complete his core item Muramana).
Yes - those nerfs were substantial band-aid hits to his most powerful build. Considering that Jayce already has a below average win rate for most players - it means that the only Jayce players that will be successful now are the ones who can best abuse Jayce's obtuse strengths.

Which means that if we let the nerfs settle in without changing his kit - only the highest end players will be able to use Jayce. Consider the fact that we haven't given power back to Jayce anywhere - but only took away power from his best build. Were his other builds viable or playable? General win rate seems to suggest that isn't so - but currently you'd be crazy to amplify any part of Jayce given that it'll be a straight buff to the competitive Jayce build.


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Supersquid

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
supnmu:
Watering everything down for the sake of simplicity is not the way to go.

I don't think LoL is the type of game where player skill is supposed to be the largest determining factor, or really even a majorly important one. Surely the best players do have mechanics, but in reality especially in competitive play the only real purpose of mechanics is to properly pull off the strategy that is what actually wins games. Sure if you watch any professional game currently there are things players do on a minute to minute basis that are really impressive to see, but if you watch especially the ogn matches, what wins the game is almost always out picking/banning and then properly executing what their comp is meant to do, and not some vast outplay in lane. This is assuming the teams are evenly matched anyway.


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Valcx

Senior Member

07-11-2013

I have been playing Jayce since release and tbh all theses changes will most likely kill the feeling i have of the champion. This is pretty much a huge overhaul and killing his kit that way just not gonna feel like him anymore. I agree he is strong atm but i only feel it will destroy the champion if you dilute everything. Muramana is the thing that make him strong atm, by cutting into the tear stacking of his R you already slowed him considerably to power spike. Contrarily to Nidalee he cant spam all his skills in the air to end up stacking anyway and need a target so in the end i don't feel tear will be really viable at some extend reducing his overall power a lot.

If you try to build him with full damage instead and removing W mana on hit regen, he will get mana starved really easily with the nerf to his mana ratio that came in b4.

Tbh i just think the champion is problematic in himself but i'm not sure the way youre trying to handle this is the right way, i agree E-Q combo should be more focused and Q in itself more AoE and would make a lot more sense and require more skill with the champion.

Anyway good luck balancing all that i just have a bad feeling that if its kit is changed that much he will probably just end up being forgotten.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:
i just have a bad feeling that if its kit is changed that much he will probably just end up being forgotten.


You are actually fairly spot on about this. Change will cause people to leave. That's pretty much guaranteed. The question here is what the alternative is - because I don't see it as being better. :x


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NoGoodInGoodbye

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Super Explosion:
No, they're actually not.

This is the humor of it-- Jayce has a ton of other mechanics that make him strong, from waveclear to engage/disengage.

Ranged E-Q combo is only a highly noticeably element of infuriation-- not the only thing making him strong.

Both Hammer Form and Cannon Form could actually most likely be their own separate champions if you added a suitable ult.


Yes, Jayce does have a ton of other machanics that make him strong but that's not the problem. The problem is 6 sec cd accelerated shock blast combos on a muramana'd Jayce with no mana problems.

All his other skills/combos have counterplay/enemy interaction (Aside from the removed multi-stack of BC on attack)

By nerfing the abuse case it allows for more power in other areas. It's not hard to work out.


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nGio

Senior Member

07-11-2013

So you guys are basically nerfing EVERYTHING about Jayce? This doesn't fix the problems with top laners. All it does is remove 1 champion, and move us into playing more Elise/Ryze/Ken/Vayne/etc.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Yes - those nerfs were substantial band-aid hits to his most powerful build. Considering that Jayce already has a below average win rate for most players - it means that the only Jayce players that will be successful now are the ones who can best abuse Jayce's obtuse strengths.

Which means that if we let the nerfs settle in without changing his kit - only the highest end players will be able to use Jayce. Consider the fact that we haven't given power back to Jayce anywhere - but only took away power from his best build. Were his other builds viable or playable? General win rate seems to suggest that isn't so - but currently you'd be crazy to amplify any part of Jayce given that it'll be a straight buff to the competitive Jayce build.


You're basically saying that you're ignoring adaptation rate.

Where once, anyone could win on the strength of the "abuse" case, now it requires you to actually play the champion with some other set of skills.

That does not mean "only competitive players"-- it means anyone accustomed to wining via an "abuse" must adapt to having to win without that "abuse".

However the issue with Jayce is that due to the composition of poke+disengage+engage on a bruiser, there will probably always be an "abuse" case.

It would be a bit like giving Annie the fastest movement speed in the game.

(Although Shock Blast, and some other sources of Jayce's power, are not really "abuse" cases-- they were deliberately designed into the champion, yet there were overpowered.)


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Dance Dark

Senior Member

07-11-2013

How will Jayce's itemization be? The decrease in Hyper Charge power, removal of To the Skies! AD scaling, and the current version of Acceleration Gate seem like they'll really hurt his all AD build. While he was OP with the edge cases in competitive play, all AD Jayce was fine in lower levels of play as of 3.8, yet these nerfs to the all AD build going to PBE along with the 3.8 nerfs will also be felt by the lower level community. Or the all AD build will at least seem wasteful because a lot of his abilities won't seem to scale with AD. Are you trying to shift Jayce away from being the AD caster or second AD carry he was previously and turn his playstyle more into how he was played at release with Trinity Force Jayce?


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SoulTapped

Member

07-11-2013

i dont play jayce but im pretty certain that the people that do love playing jayce and find it fun are not going to be happy with the OP. personally i think whatever you decide to do with jayce should be built around him buying murmana and black cleaver.