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PBE - Jayce [Update 4: 07/16/2013] - [Delayed till 3.11? 3.12?]

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Edit: Since we have to finalize the goals for the patch soon - the Jayce rework won't make it on the docket for the next patch as we're starting to really focus down on some competitive testing. Thanks for everyone whose stopped by and contributed to the post - I'll reopen this to restart testing after we ship the next patch. Thanks guys!

A quick heads up here - There is some fairly experimental stuff on Jayce that's going into the outgoing PBE build. You guys won't have access to this for a little while as PBE builds timing and pushes, while regular - are always on a 'as soon as we can' basis.

You may see some craziness in the next few days from Data Scrapers but this content is really ridiculously rough.

1. Jayce should not ignore resistances.


Yes, I know no one levels up 'R' anyway at the moment - but for the moment, let's pretend that Jayce theoretically shouldn't ignore your resistances.

2. Jayce's poke pattern is fairly unhealthy.

Mostly from a fog of war, long range Q+E standpoint.

3. Jayce's burst shouldn't hyperscale and his damage shouldn't be dependent on optimizing really weird obtuse use cases
.

This mostly pertains to the 'W' functionality changes - where people are 'rolling' W charges to string together a 6 shot hyper charge. Also, Hyper Charge probably shouldn't deal 260% damage on a critical strike - or 325% damage on an IE crit strike.

4. No, seriously. A lot of Jayce's power is locked up in really obtuse cases.

A little bit of why Jayce is so powerful in competitive play and not so much in regular play is the sheer amount of edge cases you have to abuse to get mileage out of Jayce. While some could argue this is mechanical mastery of the champion - a lot of it is simply unintuitive fodder that we should clean up so that his actual intuitive combos are powerful.

So what's going on?

We're testing a fairly experimental series of changes designed to shift power away from these three cases and into the rest of his abilities - as well as streamlining some of Jayce's muddier patterns. In general, Jayce is a decent character to have in the game but the vast majority of his power is locked up in extreme abuse cases at the moment - especially with end game super burst scenarios or long range poke scenarios.

I'll have some more specifics as we start to refine what we have - but here is a rough list of the major changes:

Passive Statistics

Shifting around his statistics to favor mana regeneration as Jayce should be more of an active laner focused around spells to achieve victory. The shift in regeneration should also compensate for the removal of Mana on Hit from Static Field.

Attack Damage reduced to 47 from 50
MP/5 increased to 10 from 7
MP/5 per level increased to 1.0 from 0.7

Jayce may no longer level Transform but his abilities have 6 ranks.

Hextech Capacitor

Moved a portion of his transform passives onto his character passive. Additionally, Hextech Capacitor is weak at character levels 1-3 but stronger at 6 and 9 to smooth out power differences between the fact that he has multi-form abilities and no ultimate.

* Now additionally grants 10 to 130 magic damage for the first attack after transformation, based on character level.

To the Skies!

To the Skies! had some early game spike power and late game spike power. Normalizing this curve such that you don't have to stack a ton of early Attack Damage or a ton of late Penetration in order to utilize this ability effectively for burst.

* Mana Cost fixed at 30 at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80
* Damage rescaled to 40/90/140/190/240/290 (+0.6 Bonus) physical damage from 20/65/110/155/200 (+1.0 Bonus) physical damage

Static Field

Static Field should encourage Jayce to stay in Hammer form and engage on his opponents for prolonged periods of time while his Cannon Transform is unavailable.

Also experimenting with a W -> R -> W swap combo - though the current gameplay is a little unintuitive.

* Passive mana gain on-hit removed.
* Damage rescaled to 60/110/160/210/260/310 (+1) from 100/170/240/310/380 (+1)
* Static Field applies a mark to opponents - your basic attacks deal an additional 20/25/30/35/40/45 (+0.2) magic damage to units marked by the field.

Thundering Blow

Thundering Blow in top lane was often Jayce's easy-mode button. If Jayce was in a bad spot - he could simply Thundering Blow to escape. Aggressively gating the Mana Cost on this ability means that eventually, Jayce's second chances will run out.

However, we wanted to preserve Jayce's engagement pattern if he chooses to be active - hence the To the Skies! Mana changes.

* Mana cost fixed at 85 from 40/50/60/70/80
* Now has a rank 6 that deals 23% health damage and up to 700 magic damage versus minions.

Transform: Mercury Hammer

* Now grants 5 to 35 Armor and Magic Resistance, based on character level.

Shock Blast

Changes here are mostly to increase the dodgability of Shock Blast, especially from fog of war + acceleration gate circumstances.

The acceleration of gate also favors using E after launching Q - as this will give the opponent the smallest amount of time to react.

* Damage rescaled to 50/100/150/200/250/300 (+1.2) Bonus AD from 60/115/170/225/280 (+1.2)
* Missile Speed increased to 1450 from 1350

* Missile Width decreased to 50 from 60.
* Missile Area of Effect decreased to 160 from 175

* Accelerated Missile Width remains at 60.
* Accelerated Missile Area of Effect decreased to 225 from 250
* Accelerated Shock Blast initial speed increased to 2550 from 2350
* Accelerated Shock blast now decays down to 1550 during flight

Hyper Charge

Hyper Charge harass becomes more dominating depending on the rank of the spell in a lot of cases. Early ranks of Hyper Charge tend to be less than mana efficient in a lot of ways. These changes are designed to reduce some of obtuse abuse cases of Hyper Charge with IE or priming the skill but to also make Hyper Charge's cost roughly equivalent to its effect.

* Damage reduced to 70/80/90/100/110/120% from 70/85/100/115/130%
* Critical strikes now simply add 100% of your total AD to the damage (this can be further modified by critical strike damage) rather than being dependent on the rank of the skill.

* Cooldown rescaled to 14/12/10/8/6/4 from 14/12/10/8/6
* Cooldown now begins when Hyper Charge is fully consumed

* Mana Cost rescaled to 30/38/46/54/62/70 from 40

Acceleration Gate

Jayce brings Acceleration Gate as his primary team utility. The Jayce player should feel confident that his team contribution shouldn't be necessarily gated by his playstyle or what he is forced to build. The cooldown nerfs in 3.9 should control Gate''s spamminess and uptime - and thus the Mana Cost here seems to be unnecessarily restricting him to Mana intensive builds.

*
Mana Cost reduced to 20 from 50
* Has a 6th rank that increases Movement Speed by 55%.

Transform: Mercury Cannon

This proc effect was mostly unnecessary - while it ensured Jayce made it to late game, the combined effect of the proc means that Jayce effectively ignored far too much of his opponent's armor than was healthy.

*
No longer has an armor and magic resist reducing proc.


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Wendek

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Good news. Can we also do something to the extremely frustrating E (Melee form) that deals insane damage for a disengage tool ? I mean you said yourself (as in, Riot, not you specifically) last year that 20% max health was too much (when you nerfed Warwick's Q) and there he gets that with an AD ratio... isn't it WAY too much for an ability that's already quite punishing for any melee champion with less than two gap-closers ?


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Lichblade

Senior Member

07-11-2013

So is the Tldr is that his Burst Poke getting nerfed?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

Good news. Can we also do something to the extremely frustrating E (Melee form) that deals insane damage for a disengage tool ?
Have not yet decided on if / what Thunder Blow needs to have changed, although with six possible ranks, it seems likely that we can rescale the damage such that per skill point, you are getting less power.

Unsure if he needs it exactly at the moment - as we're doing quite a bit at once here.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
A quick heads up here - There is some fairly experimental stuff on Jayce that's going into the outgoing PBE build. You guys won't have access to this for a little while as PBE builds timing and pushes, while regular - are always on a 'as soon as we can' basis.

You may see some craziness in the next few days from Data Scrapers but this content is really ridiculously rough.

1. Jayce should not ignore resistances.


Yes, I know no one levels up 'R' anyway at the moment - but for the moment, let's pretend that Jayce theoretically shouldn't ignore your resistances.

2. Jayce's poke pattern is fairly unhealthy.

Mostly from a fog of war, long range Q+E standpoint.

3. Jayce's burst shouldn't hyperscale and his damage shouldn't be dependent on optimizing really weird obtuse use cases
.

This mostly pertains to the 'W' functionality changes - where people are 'rolling' W charges to string together a 6 shot hyper charge. Also, Hyper Charge probably shouldn't deal 260% damage on a critical strike - or 325% damage on an IE crit strike.

So what's going on?

We're testing a fairly experimental series of changes designed to shift power away from these three cases and into the rest of his abilities - as well as streamlining some of Jayce's muddier patterns. In general, Jayce is a decent character to have in the game but the vast majority of his power is locked up in extreme abuse cases at the moment - especially with end game super burst scenarios or long range poke scenarios.

I'll have some more specifics as we start to refine what we have - but here is a rough list of the major changes:

1. Transform no longer has a shred effect on it. Transform now always simply causes the first attack after Transform to deal bonus damage based on character level.


Almost every fighter needed some form of resist shredding in Season 2 to help them deal damage in the late game. This is no longer true.

2. You may no longer level Transform. Your abilities have 6 ranks. Defense and Damage of Transform is based on character level.

Mostly clean up at this portion of the game. His abilities should be the highlight of the character - not random passive statistics on Transform.

3. To the Skies! now deals magic damage and scales off Ability Power and has vastly increased base damages.

To the Skies! being physical damage and having a Attack Damage ratio created a very uneven power curve for Jayce - early on, the spike case was heavy due to the prevalence of Attack Damage or Armor Penetration - while late game, his traditional AD / Penetration build makes To the Skies! extremely spikey.

Cleaning this up allows the Hammer form to deal primary magic damage - which allows some other builds to be played if Jayce can't use his normal glass hypercarry build - like Pen / Off-Tank.

4. Static Field no longer recovers mana on hit and damage generally reduced. It instead gives you an on-hit magic damage proc while the Static Field is ready. The cooldown also goes down with rank.

This creates some Gun / Hammer synergies as both form's 'W' can be used in the other form for damage.

We removed the mana on hit as it was simply unnecessarily added to Jayce's snowball potential and increased his base MP/5 and MP/5 growth to provide a better curve.

5. Hyper Charge no longer scales to 130% - but stops at 100% instead.

This is a change mostly aimed at tuning down super-high end Jayce potential.

6. Accelerated Shock Blasts' movement speeds decay down to 1550. In general, this means that regardless of where the Acceleration Gate is, Q + E will roughly get to your destination at the same speed.

This is a change mostly aimed at toning down Jayce's poke cases from fog of war and at long range, while still maintaining adequate ranged threat at mid-range.

This also is a change directly at shifting Jayce's Acceleration Gate combo away from always being best used directly on himself - opening up more of a range of possible Acceleration Gate positions.
im not so sure making jayce like old karma is such a good idea in ability leveling, you end up feeling gipped of damage at lvl 9 when everyone else has at least 1 skill maxed


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-11-2013

Quote:

im not so sure making jayce like old karma is such a good idea in ability leveling, you end up feeling gipped of damage at lvl 9 when everyone else has at least 1 skill maxed


Potentially - Jayce differs from old Karma in that he has two abilities he is ranking up base damage for per point.

Karma was ranking up side bonuses with her ranks - while Jayce is levelling both To the Skies! and Shock Blast simultaneously.


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Hexten

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Is Elise getting this same sort of treatment?


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Potentially - Jayce differs from old Karma in that he has two abilities he is ranking up base damage for per point.

Karma was ranking up side bonuses with her ranks - while Jayce is levelling both To the Skies! and Shock Blast simultaneously.

so at rank 6 in a skill it will do more damage than most other champs rank 5 skills? because if that isnt the case you cant reach your true rank 5 damage till lvl 10.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

07-11-2013

Question: Was any of this inspired by Dominion? We've seen these problems basically since Jayce's release.

They look good so far. I'm not sold that Hyper Charge will be fixed after this, but it looks promising.


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Ekanselttar

Recruiter

07-11-2013

Is this 6-rank QWE design going to be the new pattern for transforming champions? And are there any future plans for transforming champions? They seem to occupy a cool design space (not one I'm personally much interested in, but still cool), but the end result is that they generally have an absurd L2/3 and just generally bully people around in lane because they have insane versatility and their skills are strong enough without bringing an impactful ulti into play that they win any trade where the other guy doesn't blow his ulti. So is distributing the power through 6 levels of skill a solution for that weird power curve?