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Ap Janna = Best Janna?

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Subdue

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Quote:
AP helps Janna a lot. There's this misconception that since she isn't primarily dealing damage it's a negligible stat; however as you pointed out, OP, her shield and heal benefit a ton from AP (0.9 and 1.4 ratio respectively), which majorly improves her support. And the extra damage, while a secondary concern, isn't bad either (0.75 and 0.8 ratios).


Janna's ratios are:
Howling Gale: .75
Zephyr: .8
Eye of Storm: .9
Monsoon: .35

I don't know where you got the idea that monsoon has a 1.4 ratio.

So assume you get 300 AP. That means...

Howling Gale: 160 -> 385 AOE damage --> Unimpressive.
Zephyr: 280 -> 520 Single Target damage --> Unimpressive.
Eye of Storm: 240 -> 510 Shield --> Not even one shot from late game carries, unimpressive
Monsoon -> 170-275 Heal per second --> Hardly noticeable change.

Gathering that 300 AP would cost you at least 6000 gold. 6000 more gold on just about any carry/nuker results in significantly improved damage, and significantly improved tanking on any tank.

Quote:
At the very least get Mejais on her (unless your team gets stomped completely). Janna will get tons of assists and not die often (or at all) if played correctly, making Mejais very efficient.


While it's true that she CAN stack Mejais, for the reasons above, it's pointless. That being said, if you MUST get AP items, this is a decent choice, since it's cheap.

Quote:
What you get after that, boots and perhaps a chalice depends very much upon the game, I find:
Your team is struggling in fights and needs a small edge? Aegis (if no tank is getting it).
You just don't get that Golem and need some beef? Soul Shroud.
You are stacking that Mejais like there's no tomorrow, blue buff is yours to take, things are looking good? Zhonyas asap.


Late game you should never be taking Blue Buff anyway. There's almost always someone who can make better use of it than you. I agree with Aegis, and Soul Shroud is a decent choice too. Zhonyas is way expensive, and because AP isn't effective on her, is a huge waste.

Quote:
Don't ever get Nashor's on her. That attack speed just cries "wasted itemization".


Because your spells do negligible damage, when you're chasing down people, slowing them, knocking them up, auto attacking in between spells can significantly improve your damage. It also helps for last hitting. Plus, there are only two items with 25% CDR, Nashor's and Frozen Heart. Nashor's benefits are more useful than Frozen Heart's in most cases, since you -should- be far enough out of battle that Frozen Heart's aura won't apply during team fights. As I and some other players have pointed out before, CDR is the most important stat on Janna, and Nashor's Tooth is a very efficient way to achieve that.


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greenerpastures

Senior Member

11-26-2010

i farrrr prefer frozen heart to nashor's.


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nicosharp

Senior Member

11-26-2010

I think it depends on how well your team is holding together from levels 1-7. If you are already falling apart, AP may be better. She can fend off a tower push forever with maxed Q wiping an entire creep wave, and then shielding the tower/herself on any dives.

support is generally better, as she is the focal support champ that should be there on every push and teamfight, and any benefit she can provide her team further strengthens her support role.


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Pieson

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Janna= Support. Support =/= solo lane. Support= lane with somebody who needs last hits more than you. so no gold= no good AP items= AP Janna is bad.


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SHREK lS LlFE

Senior Member

11-26-2010

The reason you dont play ap janna is because ap items are costly, she doesnt scale well compared to other nukers, say, annie, and if you play her ap shes squishy as balls.
Buying an aegis makes you a lot harder to kill and it provides a mini 5man janna shield to everyone forever.
Aegis+frozen heart+mejais=enough team sheilding, self defense, and bonus ap for your ult and shield


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Schokcha

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Quote:
Dominatius Maxim:
I don't know where you got the idea that monsoon has a 1.4 ratio.


0.35 per second * 4 seconds = 1.4 overall AP ratio.

And as I said damage is secondary (as such not impressive, just a nice side effect). But...
Quote:
Dominatius Maxim:
Eye of Storm: 240 -> 510 Shield --> Not even one shot from late game carries, unimpressive
Monsoon -> 170-275 Heal per second --> Hardly noticeable change.

How is more than doubling the amount shielded unimpressive? You might as well claim the whole ability is unimpressive apart from the AD.
And that increase on her ult comes down to more than 400hp healed per target (though admittedly you don't always let it channel fully).

Massive understatement on your part, there.

Quote:
While it's true that she CAN stack Mejais, for the reasons above, it's pointless. That being said, if you MUST get AP items, this is a decent choice, since it's cheap.

It's not only cheap, it's such a bargain on Janna (easy assists and extremely high survivability) that it would be downright foolish in many games not to get it. Even if you go for only support items otherwise, there's no reason to skip Mejais (provided you don't get stomped).


Quote:
Because your spells do negligible damage, when you're chasing down people, slowing them, knocking them up, auto attacking in between spells can significantly improve your damage. It also helps for last hitting. Plus, there are only two items with 25% CDR, Nashor's and Frozen Heart. Nashor's benefits are more useful than Frozen Heart's in most cases, since you -should- be far enough out of battle that Frozen Heart's aura won't apply during team fights. As I and some other players have pointed out before, CDR is the most important stat on Janna, and Nashor's Tooth is a very efficient way to achieve that.


Then again, about the attack speed:
- If you want damage, a specialized AP item would be much better way to achieve that than a medium attack speed bonus without any attack damage (you did give your shield to the carry, did you?).
- Last hitting? You usually don't last hit much with Janna, you feed your laning partner.
- You might have had a minor point if you had mentioned pushing towers.

I understand your thoughts concerning the CDR (and I did state Golem isn't a given), but I would much rather compromise with a Soul Shroud (also improving team support) than waste gold on attack speed.


To summarize: I don't support playing her pure AP if you aren't stomping (and even then...). She does however profit more from AP than most people assume, so getting some, especially in the efficient and cheap form of a soulstealer, is a very good idea. Always build according to what your current game demands and/or allows.


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Xailion

Recruiter

11-26-2010

AD/AS/MS Jana ftw


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Smellis

Senior Member

11-26-2010

We get what you're saying about AP. But the fact of the matter is games rarely last long enough for her to actually GET some after shes build up the things she needs first, those being CDR/mana/hp. Its just not something to prioritize. Mejai's is probably the most cost effective for her or if you go with my item route, finishing off your AA staff. A little extra AP is indeed nice but most people will focus on getting other things maxed first.


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Subdue

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Quote:
0.35 per second * 4 seconds = 1.4 overall AP ratio.

And as I said damage is secondary (as such not impressive, just a nice side effect). But...


That's an interesting way to calculate the AP ratio, but it's severely misleading. The ratio is .35 over 4 seconds. To say it's 1.4 with no clarification suggests you mean you get 1.4 per second.

Quote:
How is more than doubling the amount shielded unimpressive? You might as well claim the whole ability is unimpressive apart from the AD.
And that increase on her ult comes down to more than 400hp healed per target (though admittedly you don't always let it channel fully).

Massive understatement on your part, there.


Just about any AD carry will do over 500 damage per shot in the mid-late game. That means your shield will block at most 1 shot. Hardly significant in the long run. The value of the shield late game is the AD (Which remains even when the defensive bonus is spent). And, if it costs 300 AP to add 100/second to the effectiveness of a spell, it's not worth stacking AP for that spell.

Quote:
It's not only cheap, it's such a bargain on Janna (easy assists and extremely high survivability) that it would be downright foolish in many games not to get it. Even if you go for only support items otherwise, there's no reason to skip Mejais (provided you don't get stomped).


It's not necessarily a bad buy, but there are things you need more, namely CDR, which it doesn't add until it's maxed out. And after you get your CDR, you find you can contribute more to your team by building Aegis next, or Starks, or whatever your team has use for, or spamming wards.

Quote:
Then again, about the attack speed:
- If you want damage, a specialized AP item would be much better way to achieve that than a medium attack speed bonus without any attack damage (you did give your shield to the carry, did you?).
- Last hitting? You usually don't last hit much with Janna, you feed your laning partner.
- You might have had a minor point if you had mentioned pushing towers.


I agree, you'll be giving last hits to your laning partner most of the game. However, there will be times when your laning partner will have recalled, or died, or moved to another lane, and situations when you are stuck defending a lane on your own. Not the best scenario but it does happen. Having the attack speed does help for that. And you're right, it helps for pushing down towers too.


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gun fu panda

Senior Member

11-26-2010

AP is expensive. Janna should have 0 kills and end with a nearly 0 CS. It makes getting items difficult.