What TT needs to make adc's viable

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Eagle Orion

Senior Member

07-04-2013

I don't know remember all the things Riot did to make TT more balanced for all champs last time they revamped it, but as I understand it, it didn't really accomplish much. I like the changes, but nothing's more balanced. It seems to me the faults of TT that make adc's not viable are pretty obvious.

-Longer laning spaces?
-With more side entrances?
-But smaller map?
-With no wards?
-Why?

Distance between turrets is much greater in TT than in SR. And there are are FOUR side entrances in between just the first two turrets. Yet with overall map size, it's very easy to move from one lane to the other. And on top of that, there aren't any wards. All this adds up to: people can gank the **** out of other people. That's an early game carry's worst nightmare. But bruisers or mages with good mobility can handle it.

They kept trap-detection/active-temp-ward items to keep trap-champs from exerting TT dominance for this reason. If you add wards of any kind, on such a small map, you can get ridiculous amounts of vision per-map-size. But removing wards doesn't keep Teemo from warding, now does it? Hence the warding actives. Still, that doesn't resolve the major issue that certain champs just need that kind of vision early to survive, especially when they can't rely on turret defenses early because the turrets are so spread apart!

And then of course, there's one more issue:

-Shorter game lengths

Most games end by the time you reach your third item on 3s. Carries, being late game champs, barely reach that phase.

Now don't get me wrong. I've seen some carries rock in 3s. But two things have to happen to make that possible.

-They CANNOT get behind in anyway.
-The other two members of their team have to at least be doing okay.

If they get behind, or a member of the opposing team gets even slightly fed early, that carry's gonna get dumped on hard. In SR, if, say, top gets behind, that's okay. Bot is not gonna have much trouble from a top lane champ unless it's Shen. But in 3s, any member of the opposing team can go for the carry at pretty much any time. And now I circle back to my original points.

So, thoughts on this. Do you think my assessment is accurate? If so, what do you think could be changed in TT to resolve these issues? I'm not sure how I'd like to see TT changed, and I wouldn't say adding wards is a good idea. Honestly though, if you have a jungler, you'll have semi-decent vision most of the time for 2 of those side entrances. But even that's iffy. I don't know how I'd approach the issue.


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Delthir

Member

07-04-2013

I agree completely. People say there isn't a meta on 3's but you pretty much have to go tanky bruiser and/or sustain


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Eagle Orion

Senior Member

07-07-2013

Here's one thought: owning an altar provides you with vision not just on the altar, but in a small range around the altar. Enough to give you vision of anyone going for the nearby side entrances for at least a moment. Or, another possibility, change the orientation of the jungle pathways and positioning of the altar, such that in order to enter the side pathways that are farther away from the towers, you HAVE to walk on an altar. I'm not sure how you could reshape everything that way without making the jungles less open and more semi-maze like, which would have other repercussions I don't even know about. But it might not be a bad idea.

Noticeably, right now, vision on the altar while it's locked is kind of dumb. You have to be completely absent-minded to not just walk around an enemy altar. So why is their vision on it in the first place? I get why there is when it isn't locked and capture-able. But while it's locked?

Another thought: Instead of giving it increased vision, allow standard wards on the map, but ONLY allow ward placements on owned territory locations. Territory owned is determined by owned altars, and maybe turrets still up. It's isolated, and it wouldn't allow you to place wards in places like, Spider, lane bushes, or the enemy side of the map, except if you have the enemy altar (and only then, in a small area of the enemy jungle.)


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Lachrimae

Senior Member

07-07-2013

Hmm.. I don't know, I see an ADC almost every game of 3s.


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the Anarchit3cht

Senior Member

07-07-2013

I have never seen anybody have any of these problems whatsoever. Just play more carefully, thats what my ADC always does and we come out on top nearly every game. Want to get rid of trap wards? There are plenty of items that reveal invisible units or work to counter traps. Most of my teammates actually favor the longer space in between turrets so that the little cowards can't run and hide.


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Rabbitsuit

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Senior Member

07-07-2013

Perhaps it's different since it's higher elo, but you may want to look into watching some streams on twitch. Vayne, Draven and Quinn aren't uncommon picks. They haven't been winning solely due to having their teammates do alright at the same time either. Just personal skill and picking champions that have decent synergy together.

Hell, I saw a challenger team lose to a gold team that was running Yorick, Vayne, Nunu despite the challengers being far ahead at the start.

EU tends to be a fan of having a ADC on the map as well, despite it being an early game centric map.

If anything, I want a buff to the jungle to occur so EU cannot ignore it early game in favor for an ADC/support like setup. There's already a map that promotes the 0 CS meta with a hard carry ADC/support and a map that focuses solely on alters, why attempt to change another map into a tiny clones of them?

And then there's these

http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtrac...-got-your-wish
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3551106

I'll quote one section from the above here

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconPawwwwnch View Post
This is not to directly insult ranged dps players. This thread is to address the game's health as a whole and how focusing the central of balance on ranged dps champs has completely stagnated the game at high levels of play, and how Riot's balancing patterns have led to this stagnation.

Because of your nonstop complaining about how useless your favorite class was, you resulted in the nerfs of everything that remotely counters you. Let's look over the past shall we?

Burst casters killing ad carries to fast? Nerf burst casters and nerf deathcap
Urgot dominates ad carry lanes? Nerfed to the ground
Malphite dominates ad carry in teamfights? Immediately nerfed
Nasus wither hurts ad carries too much? Wither nerfed immediately once nasus sees tournament play
Assassins bursting ad carries too fast? Nerf all assassins
People too tanky for you to kill? Warmogs nerfed, Randuins nerfed, Bork reworked to favor ad carries
Melee bruisers too threatening to ad carries? Nerf all bruiser itemization like atma's, warmogs, witt's end, trinity force, etc.
AD carries too safe in lane? Nerf every support (except thresh, the dude is like immune to nerfs somehow)
Every other champion role has been nerfed as a result of their impact on ad carries
Summoner's Rift already caters to ADCs. If this one doesn't get on its hands and knees to further welcome them when in the highest tier of play on this map uses them already, I'm fine with that.


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Too Kawaii

Member

07-07-2013

There is actually a really strong meta to TT, one of which I've taken more of a liking to than even Summoners Rift. Typically in normal game play you see two bot, one top. What seems to work best top is a ranged adc, and a melee tank with ranged AP or even a support with ranged AP bot. There's always room for a melee adc sure, but in TT you have to be exceptionally well at playing that champion. Wards in such a small map with such fast gameplay would be kind of cheap. That's the beauty of TT is that it tests your map awareness, gankability, and team work! And don't forget about team comp. Obviously Teemo or Maokai will give your team a visual advantage. In ranked, you do actually see a lot of jungling. Lee Sin for example can hover around bot as well as jungle, giving your ap carry extra gold, as well as having Sin control your side of the map. It all boils down to your team having good communication and a good team composition. More of a challenge than summoners rift IMO.


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Eagle Orion

Senior Member

07-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Anarchit3cht View Post
I have never seen anybody have any of these problems whatsoever. Just play more carefully, thats what my ADC always does and we come out on top nearly every game. Want to get rid of trap wards? There are plenty of items that reveal invisible units or work to counter traps. Most of my teammates actually favor the longer space in between turrets so that the little cowards can't run and hide.
I was curious to check your lolking stats to see if you were speaking as a high elo or low elo player. But apparently that's a level 11 account you're posting with. I'm guessing this is a smurf account, so the rank is undetermined.

You know, it's funny. There was a period of time where I played Ashe almost exclusively on TT a long time ago, early in my LoL career. And honestly, I didn't have much trouble. I almost forgot about that. But what I found then (and what I still do now with any champ) is if I get extended, I just ditch and go jungle for a while (in 3s, starting with a vampiric scepter, that wasn't too hard to do with Ashe.) Heck, even now I see guys who deliberately turtle, ESPECIALLY when they KNOW they counter their opponent. Why? Because it's so easy to take down an extended opponent.

So I ditch and go jungle for a while to prevent that from happening. Of course, this assumes I don't have a jungler on my team. Which back then, I never did. The advantage of alternating between jungling and laning is: you wouldn't get ganked in lane, and you'd still keep your cs going. Even now I see people who harass effectively, use it as an excuse to push at lvl 3 or so, when that doesn't accomplish much that early, and then get very predictably ganked. If you're trying to deny someone cs by pushing to turret, that rarely works if your opponent is any good at csing. I've seen adc's in 5s pushed back to their turrets for half the laning phase, but when I check the cs on the two adc's, it's still roughly the same. Heck, the turtling adc's cs may even be GREATER sometimes.

So yeah, I guess even I've had experiences that counter my own assessment. I think the main reason it bothers me is that I've seen a lot of adc's lately in 3s myself, and the only time they work out is when the other team ALSO has an adc. If the other team goes all-bruiser, they just get crushed. Also, I tried Corki recently on 3s, along with a few other champs. That was only a couple of games, but they were pretty awful. Once my teammates got behind, I couldn't contribute anything to help us recover. The best I could do in teamfights was escape immediately. If I got in range to do anything, I'd have a fed champ or two in my face about to blow me up. I didn't feed (cause I'm Corki. I can totally escape) but that's just the problem, all I really could do was escape.

Now if I was going up against enemies that were ahead while I was playing OTHER champs that I usually play, that are sustain or tanky, I could still contribute to the fight, and recover team ground. I just couldn't see after those experiences, and after seeing some other adc's lately, how adc's could help recover ground at all. And that's a pretty big shortcoming. But hey, who am I to make absolute assessment when I'm not that experienced playing adc's in 3s myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbitsuit View Post
Perhaps it's different since it's higher elo, but you may want to look into watching some streams on twitch. Vayne, Draven and Quinn aren't uncommon picks. They haven't been winning solely due to having their teammates do alright at the same time either. Just personal skill and picking champions that have decent synergy together.

Hell, I saw a challenger team lose to a gold team that was running Yorick, Vayne, Nunu despite the challengers being far ahead at the start.

EU tends to be a fan of having a ADC on the map as well, despite it being an early game centric map.

If anything, I want a buff to the jungle to occur so EU cannot ignore it early game in favor for an ADC/support like setup. There's already a map that promotes the 0 CS meta with a hard carry ADC/support and a map that focuses solely on alters, why attempt to change another map into a tiny clones of them?

And then there's these

http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtrac...-got-your-wish
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3551106

I'll quote one section from the above here

Summoner's Rift already caters to ADCs. If this one doesn't get on its hands and knees to further welcome them when in the highest tier of play on this map uses them already, I'm fine with that.
Your points are great, but I don't know why you quoted FalconPaw. He's one of those people I WOULDN'T want defending any of my opinions. It would be embarrassing. He just sounds like another whiner, moaning the moment one of his fav champs gets a nerf. I've had some of my favorite champs get some pretty hard nerfs. Sej and Akali come to mind. And honestly, I still think those nerfs were logical. I don't go crying on the forums just because I liked them. Nasus is still great, and what did he get before the nerf? Oh yeah, a bunch of buffs. Malph is still permabanned half the time. Assassins still do just fine.

Seriously, is he really gonna complain about the Nasus wither? Let's see, the attack speed slow on it was basically a Frozen Heart on crack. It lasts for 5 seconds, and with cdr, it has about a 6.6 second cd. A second and a half after it ends, he can already use it again with cdr (all he needs for capped cdr is a visage and a frozen heart. Both of which would be great on Nasus.) Before, it was 35% attack speed slow, increasing to 90%. NINETY. If he DID build a frozen heart, then he could basically disable an adc indefinitely just by breathing on them. That is absurd, and clearly a problem. It needed a nerf. Period. If the guy doesn't like the fact that certain champs can't crush entire classes of other champs by default without even trying, he's ridiculous

BTW, who did the Yorick tend to ult? Here's what I'm thinking: It's really hard to kill either Nunu or Yorick, so they'd go for Vayne. But both Yorick and Nunu can easily be butts to any team chasing their carry, and Vayne herself is great at mobility and obstructive cc. And even if Vayne DOES get caught, if Yorick ults her, Vayne ALSO becomes a butt. All that boils down to: butt teams for the win. I've found the carries that are total bosses in 3s have a really well thought out team comp. You can tell the people are running together, because the coordination suggests a pretty longstanding strategy.

But what does that say about adc's in standard matchmaking? Can they hold their own with random teammates, like bruisers can? I wouldn't say so. But that in itself doesn't call for a rework, when well-thought-out teams can make adc's extremely op in 3s. This creates a dilemma.


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Mavrik V

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Senior Member

07-08-2013

ADCs are already viable, if not overpowered versus many champions. Ezreal, Vayne, and Draven have no issues steamrolling most champions; Caitlin isn't far behind. You push bruiser and off-tanks completely out of lane from levels 1-4, giving you a 1-2 level lead and a 10-20 CS lead. From there you gain a full item lead, and proceed to win the first fight because you made level 6 first as a team. Because you are a ranged AD, you get the extreme siege advantage, push to their turret, and siege it gleefully, as your jungler counter-jungles them completely. After midgame, because thorn mail no longer exists, your Last Whisper and Sanguine Blade make you an unstoppable juggernaut that easily wins duels vs any bruiser, and obliterate APCs and turrets alike in seconds..

If anyone is seriously complaining that ADCs are outclassed and unviable, they are either behind the times, or lack the skill and game knowledge necessary to make them work. As an ADC you should not only be auto-winning your lane, but outright carrying your team, not expecting teammates help as you farm for years while being useless.


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Eagle Orion

Senior Member

07-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Logan View Post
ADCs are already viable, if not overpowered versus many champions. Ezreal, Vayne, and Draven have no issues steamrolling most champions; Caitlin isn't far behind. You push bruiser and off-tanks completely out of lane from levels 1-4, giving you a 1-2 level lead and a 10-20 CS lead. From there you gain a full item lead, and proceed to win the first fight because you made level 6 first as a team. Because you are a ranged AD, you get the extreme siege advantage, push to their turret, and siege it gleefully, as your jungler counter-jungles them completely. After midgame, because thorn mail no longer exists, your Last Whisper and Sanguine Blade make you an unstoppable juggernaut that easily wins duels vs any bruiser, and obliterate APCs and turrets alike in seconds..

If anyone is seriously complaining that ADCs are outclassed and unviable, they are either behind the times, or lack the skill and game knowledge necessary to make them work. As an ADC you should not only be auto-winning your lane, but outright carrying your team, not expecting teammates help as you farm for years while being useless.
You sound like someone who's just not very good at laning against adc's. Of course ranged champs are gonna have a major early game lane advantage against what are usually melee champs. Especially ranged with high mobility. Kennen can be really obnoxious to several top lane champs early game. And not because he's an adc. A teemo played right can do the same. Watching him lane against a Singed, when he knows what he's doing, is always funny. And guess what? Those aren't adc's. I've had to go on the defensive MANY times against ranged champs, but that never put me so far behind that it caused all the problems you're complaining about. If you're getting pushed out of lane that much by adc's, it's because you're not playing that well.

Your claim that they tend to win against bruisers late game is also pretty absurd. I can't remember the last time I COULDN'T blow up an adc with a standard mage or top lane champ. The only way an adc can keep from getting blown up, is to kite or have plenty of peel... and for the other team to not have a counterstrategy for that. ADC's are not overpowered. They are just what their name is SUPPOSE to imply. They are CARRIES. They CARRY their team in fights. Why? Because they're suppose to do stupid amounts of damage. But the disadvantage is they are EXTREMELY easy to kill. It requires the coordination of an entire team for an adc to be useful half the time. The only exceptions to this is primarily melee adc's, who have more built in damage and sustain than ranged carries.

That is not overpowered. That is just what a carry is suppose to be.


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