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Phantom Dancer on AD Jax--Consensus?

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zsjostrom35

Senior Member

11-24-2010

I've been playing Jax for quite a while, and most of the threads I've seen on how to build him seem to contain a lot of disagreement over whether Phantom Dancer is a good item. I was just wondering whether we could reach a consensus on this.

Phantom Dancer Stats:
+45% Attack Speed
+30% Critical Strike
+20% Dodge
+15% Move Speed
Cost: 3395

Pros:
--The attack speed really helps Jax's front-end damage, as relying on nothing but Rageblade and his ult requires a lot of ramp-up time
--Crit chance is obviously a good stat on any AD carry
--Dodge is obviously a great stat for Jax, as it makes it easier for him to proc his stun and adds additional magic resist to the activation effect of his ult
--Move speed is good because apart from a once-every-five-seconds leap and an extremely unreliable stun, Jax has no natural chasing mechanisms

Cons:
--Very expensive
--Has no synergy with his passive. Jax has very little inherent survivability and instead relies on building damage to become beefy; this item, however, gives him none
--The marginal returns on stacking dodge decrease the more dodge you have, and most Jax players will already have plenty from runes/masteries/Ninja Tabi/Counterstrike. Those four will give him about 34% dodge (at level 5 of Counterstrike), at which point Phantom Dancer only raises it to 47%. 34% is enough to proc a stun off of minions quickly, while most auto-attacking champs know not to focus Jax in the first place. So the extra 13% really only ends up factoring into his ult, but 13 additional magic resist isn't very much

Personally, I've always felt that Phantom Dancer isn't worth the high cost. Jax is incredibly dependent on damage items to begin with, and as weak as his early game is you have to make every single bit of gold count to avoid being a complete non-factor in the game. Other than the dodge, you can get all of these stats elsewhere on items that synergize a lot better with what Jax tries to do (movespeed/attack speed can come from the Zeal component of Trinity Force, which also includes Sheen for extra burst damage and a Phage that really helps his chasing; crit chance comes with Atma's, which is pretty much mandatory on AD Jax) and like I said above the extra dodge isn't THAT helpful. I'm open to other arguments, however, am I missing something here?


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Balorlord

Senior Member

11-24-2010

The point on building phantom for jax is so you can get merc treads instead of tabi to counter their CC and still have decent dodge. the other stats, especially the movespeed are just icing on the cake


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zsjostrom35

Senior Member

11-24-2010

Quote:
Balorlord:
The point on building phantom for jax is so you can get merc treads instead of tabi to counter their CC and still have decent dodge. the other stats, especially the movespeed are just icing on the cake


Hmm, didn't think of that. So when would you actually get Phantom Dancer with a build like this? I'd assume it would go something like Treads->Rageblade->PD, but that seems like a really long time to wait to get a big chunk of your dodge. Building PD before Rageblade speeds that up, but Rageblade is such a core item on Jax that it's probably not good to delay it that long. Alternatively, you could focus on maxing Counterstrike earlier, but that means he has to wait longer to get the cooldown-reducing levels on Leap Strike and Empower. I know CC is a big weakness of Jax's and so Merc Treads make sense, but it seems like you're sacrificing a lot to get them. Is it worth it?


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Belbin

Senior Member

11-24-2010

I think Jax almost needs Phantom Dancer because all of the reasons you stated. Everyone knows not to fight Jax toe-to-toe, but the biggest issue for Jax in that is that if he only fights in short bursts, he cannot count on his ult to bring up his attack speed (and sometimes not rageblade, either). With PD, you can get the movespeed you need to force yourself upon your opponent, and the attack speed will help you start off nice and fast.

Leaving the ninja tabi behind for merc treads and phantom dancer is a great idea i didnt even think of. With about half the champions today using slows and still a fair number using stuns, snares, taunts, and everything else to stop us, mercury treads are important for almost every champion. Why should Jax be the exception? It'll also give you a nice small boost in MR which is always nice against that pesky Ryze.

Every champion can hold up to 6 items, and with some games lasting over an hour, why would there not be room for PD? Even with it and your boots, theres room for 4 damage items which can more than make up for not having one item of pure damage. Rammus cant stack armor all day, and Nidalee can't use brush while defending the nexus, so feel lucky that Jax can use his passive as much as he can.


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Balorlord

Senior Member

11-25-2010

Quote:
zsjostrom35:
Hmm, didn't think of that. So when would you actually get Phantom Dancer with a build like this? I'd assume it would go something like Treads->Rageblade->PD, but that seems like a really long time to wait to get a big chunk of your dodge. Building PD before Rageblade speeds that up, but Rageblade is such a core item on Jax that it's probably not good to delay it that long. Alternatively, you could focus on maxing Counterstrike earlier, but that means he has to wait longer to get the cooldown-reducing levels on Leap Strike and Empower. I know CC is a big weakness of Jax's and so Merc Treads make sense, but it seems like you're sacrificing a lot to get them. Is it worth it?


It depends, you can still start with ninja tabi, you just sell them and replace with merc treads when you can buy phantom along with. you only lose a little under an elixir in return its early game dodge and get a sweet 40% cc reduc and MR boost in the deal
850 (total price) - 565 (sell price) = 255 (gold loss)

If you feel nit picky about gold, you can just ask your teammates to let you lane longer to farm the phantom before teamfighting. You lose some advantage in extra lane phase, but you get it back with the extra elixir for those teamfights.

You are right about rageblade being core and i agree that it should be built as soon as you can


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zsjostrom35

Senior Member

11-25-2010

Quote:
Belbin:
Every champion can hold up to 6 items, and with some games lasting over an hour, why would there not be room for PD? Even with it and your boots, theres room for 4 damage items which can more than make up for not having one item of pure damage. Rammus cant stack armor all day, and Nidalee can't use brush while defending the nexus, so feel lucky that Jax can use his passive as much as he can.


The issue isn't taking up an item slot; the issue is the timing of the build. Jax NEEDS to get damage early to have any sort of utility in a team fight by mid-game, otherwise he's just a squishy melee champ with almost no burst. Attack speed and crit chance are nice stats, but they don't really shine unless you've got some heavy damage behind them. This makes Phantom Dancer a good late-game item, but then you have the problem of not getting your dodge soon enough. Remember, dodge is at its best early when even mages have to rely on their autoattacks somewhat.

Quote:
":
It depends, you can still start with ninja tabi, you just sell them and replace with merc treads when you can buy phantom along with. you only lose a little under an elixir in return its early game dodge and get a sweet 40% cc reduc and MR boost in the deal
850 (total price) - 565 (sell price) = 255 (gold loss)


I really like this . I must admit, it's never occurred to me to switch boots in the middle of a game, but it really does make sense for a champ like Jax. Dodge gets less effective as the game goes on and CC becomes harder to deal with as enemies level up their abilities, so swapping out Tabi for Treads will probably work very well.

Quote:
":
If you feel nit picky about gold, you can just ask your teammates to let you lane longer to farm the phantom before teamfighting. You lose some advantage in extra lane phase, but you get it back with the extra elixir for those teamfights.


So when would you actually get the Phantom? I'm still not sold on it being a great third item, but if you wait too much longer you'll be straying into the late-game without the Treads. Maybe Tabi->Rageblade->B.F. Sword->Phantom Dancer/Treads (-Tabi)->Bloodthirster? I'd just prefer to have a little more damage before dropping a ton of gold on crit and attack speed.


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zsjostrom35

Senior Member

11-25-2010

Bump. Any other thoughts?


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Balorlord

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Quote:
zsjostrom35:
So when would you actually get the Phantom? I'm still not sold on it being a great third item, but if you wait too much longer you'll be straying into the late-game without the Treads. Maybe Tabi->Rageblade->B.F. Sword->Phantom Dancer/Treads (-Tabi)->Bloodthirster? I'd just prefer to have a little more damage before dropping a ton of gold on crit and attack speed.

Sorry for that misleading section of my post, I should of expanded on it and why someone would be picky with their gold and rush phantom 3rd.

Personally, I mostly play tight fisted when I'm against a late game comp.I don't need the extra advantage I lose dropping tabi vs. such an easy early game but i do need the gold gained by dropping it, so I would go merc treads, guinsoos, phantom, and I'd have built all the stats I truly need (except high dps), really fast.

Conveniently, these items leave 3 slots left over to hold the infamous jax triple elixir in to give me high dps (and where that "extra elixir" i was talking about comes into play)
Force teamfight --> Push --> GG


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WithoutSkill

Senior Member

11-26-2010

Quote:
Balorlord:
850 (total price) - 565 (sell price) = 255 (gold loss)


You got your pricetags wrong buddy.

Threads are : boots 1 (350) + resist thingy (400) + recipe (450) = 1200

So the gold loss is more like 605 gold ? Not sure on the tabi exact prices, i ll assume u got that right.

605 gold still isnt that big of a deal tho.


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HeLLStaR3

Member

11-26-2010

IMO your better off with triforce. You dont need the dodge if you have tabi and proper runes/masteries any extra is a waste when it could be damage.

Ive had too much sucuss with triforce and atmas/bloodthirster combo.

With ult and MR per level runes and mabey a MR item if too much burst ive never had a problem with needing to get treads instead of tabi.


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