Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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Zastie

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Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by scyKoTiKc View Post
ftfy
If you want to call it anything other than a nerf, it's at the most a tweak, in no way was that a Sona rework, all her abilities are the same, just number tweaked. Which in all nerfed her.


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madusaxxviii

Junior Member

06-29-2013

Hey Xelnath. The biggest problem i have with Yorick, which makes me cringe every time i see him picked, is how his ghouls make him somewhat immune to skillshots. The way the ghouls function is they generally put themselves between myself and the enemy Yorick meaning i have no hope of landing my skill shot past this minion (ex Ahri's charm). Its especially frustrating because the ghouls have nearly 100% up time. Perhaps if spells would pass through the ghouls i wouldn't hate Yorick so much
(note Elise's spiderlings also give her this "skillshot barrier", Malzahar's crab isn't as bad but always seem to spawn in front of my shots at the most crucial moments.)


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Mattarias

Senior Member

06-29-2013

I like the idea of him doing stuff with the "souls" he gets from last hitting!

Also, please consider the ideas Coronach had forever ago: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...41781#21041781


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Dromar420

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
This is unprecedentedly good feedback. ZenonTheStoic is helping me gather feedback on the EU German forums as well.

So my general take aways so far:
  • The general fantasy Yorick players have is very consistent and unsatisfied.
  • Yorick is much more offensive to players than I had imagined.
  • Yorick players come in two major categories.
  • - Pick Yorick for his Theme (Necromancer)
  • - Pick Yorick for his Raw Power (Broken sustain/poke)

This guy will probably be a much more severe rework than Xerath. However, it seems clear what direction he must go:

1) Yorick must feel like he controls an "Army of the Damned" - multiple minions, not one powerful one
2) Yorick must feel like he can make skillful plays, using his ghouls.
3) Yorick opponents must feel like they can outplay his moves.

Some Yorick players show that they appreciate how powerful and uncounterable Yorick is. However, this is not healthy for league, as I think most players will agree. The surprise to me is that these Yorick players feel that he prevents other, worse, champion playstyles from becoming dominant in top lane.

If this is true, it means we may need to simultaneously investigate those issues, if Yorick is the last bastion counter champ.... I will confer with higher skilled players to see if this is consistently true.

Either way, his "no-brain" playstyle clearly must go.
I find i dont realy agree with his being uncounterable ive never had a hard time personaly against a yorick but i know people have problems against me when i play him to me i realy think its more problem with player mentality because heavy ad champs like riven when they all in him can win the fights but people are too hesitant to do so. That said i do feel he is a little on the strong side but man it sure is fun bonking people with that shovel.


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SepticusSepticus

Junior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
Hands down option two. Option one sounds too much in my head like "give him regular spells and just put in a ghoul animation," which seems to be a very cheap way to go. His minions have to feel like true units to some degree, that is, they move around, have their own actions, and can be killed. Obviously they should be guided/controlled by the Yorick player, but don't have them simply be nothing more than an animation slapped on top of a "regular spell" so to say, that sounds like a complete dodge. Have them be true minions in some capacity.


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2hot2trotsky

Senior Member

06-29-2013

i love Yorick, the only top laner i can play remotely at all (because i'm bad and yorick is simple) but with that said there are some things that worry me whenever you talk about reworks, anyone who used to play or main karma knows it all too well, the loss of the unique feeling in favor for a more simple watered down kit. that being said i'm sure you guys will do nothing wrong with yorick and any change to him nerf or buff (because even though it's better for the game, removing his early game dominance is still a nerf) i'm sure the decisions will make playing Yorick feel rewarding and fun.

i just ask one thing, KEEP THE SHOVEL. the talk of him being a necromancer has images of this tall cloaked figure with a scythe and dark magics, floating around in my brain, and i would not like that cliche to be what my favorite top laner to devolve into to

just keep the shovel, so we may bludgeon are enemies to death with them, then bury them with it.


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Yesimfrigginevil

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
If you go route 2, I may buy him just for the epicness.


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doublelift fg

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosive Sludge View Post
Yorick currently spams ghouls, however he could be made to spam zombies and ghouls depending on the spell used.

Currently Yorick's raw power comes from 1.High Sustain 2.Dealing Damage while not taking creep aggro 3. Not really an issue but creep block with his ghouls.

All this is done by Q,W,E. You could add a level of complexity to his game play

A solution for yorick without changing much of his skillset is by allowing him to have any 2 ghouls active at a time, depending on which pair of zombie/ghoul he spawns you would get an additional effect.The spells could have a global cooldown on all 3 spells after any two of them have been casted. Casting any of the spells alone could spawn a normal zombie/ghoul that deals damage(based on base damage)

These additional effect could be : Lifesteal, Movement Speed, Slow, Bonus AR/MR .
2 gouls because 3 op did you saw how many gouls undying can summon in dota?


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Kuralesache

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Senior Member

06-29-2013

It really seems like people prefer autoattacks summoning minions, and I agree. However, there are 2 obvious problems with that.
1) What do his abilities do if his autoattacks summon minions?
2) What can he do if he can't get autoattacks off in teamfights?

I think he will HAVE to summon minions with at least some of his abilities to solve these problems. My idea is this:
Have his ultimate summon a huge swarm of minions (one of each type, or the max capacity, depending on how the minions are redesigned) on top of himself along with his ghost, or on top of another player if he targets his teammate. This should give him the TERRIFYING GHOUL ARMY!!1!1 feel that I think Yorick players really enjoy, but more importantly, it gives him an ultimate that consistently works for him after level 6. His current lategame suffers for having no consistent ultimate, and I think combining a minion swarm ultimate with autoattack minion spawns could help him lorewise and help to balance him if he has difficulty getting minions through autoattacks. His laning phase becomes about clever autoattack handling, but in teamfights he isn't forced to rely on autoattacks because he has a button to summon his ghouls.

PS This doesn't address what qwe do at all, of course, but I think it might be possible to find a way to work with it, if QWE control minions and/or toggle which minions he spawns.


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Insur Salesman

Junior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Question Hound View Post
Hey there Xelnath. Oldschool Yorick player here (I picked him up on launch day and played him obsessively even before the hotfixes -- my friends refused to play with me during that time cause of how bad he was lol) and I'd love to get into this conversation. I'm gonna piggyback on this and give a (mostly) comprehensive post on why I like and dislike Yorick and what I think his best and worst feature are.

First of all, Yorick as a character:
  • His theme is one that I think is supremely cool -- not a necromancer, but a soul without rest whose undying aura manifests as battle-ready servants. I always imagined the ghouls as projections of Yorick himself, not the remains or spirits of other dead. His spell names reflect that somewhat, but more on that later.
  • His visual style is, to me, very appealing as well -- I'm attached to any character that wields a shovel for the, how you say, brutal simplicity of it. He's not a guy who needs a sword, much like Jax -- with Yorick, though, I feel the shovel is something intensely personal which is an important aspect to observe and even improve upon.
  • His skins are great, Undertaker especially. None of my friends understand the incredibly satisfying fantasy of being a masked, featureless Victorian-era creepy-guy -- it's equal parts Jack the Ripper, Dr. Jekyll and Jason visually, which is really REALLY cool.

Second, Yorick as a champion:
  • First and foremost the problem I really have with Yorick, much as I love playing him, is how little impact he himself seems to have. Ghouls are great, and strong, and you can pull off some interesting things with them in lane, but Yorick himself seems to be always playing catch-up with his ghouls in terms of damage output.
  • To expand on what I mean above, let's take a look at his passive. "For each summon that is active (Ghouls and the Revenant), Yorick takes 5% less damage and his autoattacks deal 5% more damage." That sounds powerful and interesting on paper, but what does it mean? Assume a best-case scenario where Yorick gets the jump on an unsuspecting foe. He pops his ult in brush, then unloads with a barrage of all three ghouls and goes to town. With 4 summons, Yorick is doing 20% more damage and taking that much less from his foe's counterattack, but it doesn't feel that strong. It's an issue of invisible stats being hard to read. Maybe 20% increase in autoattack damage is too much -- I'm not a Live Design guy, I don't know if that's possibly too good -- but as a Yorick player it never feels like it makes a noticeable difference and that takes away some of the fun of the champion.
  • Omen of Famine is probably in the top 5 most broken spells in the game. Targeted, spammy lifestealing nuke? It's like a Vlad Q only it sticks around to keep healing Yorick. It scales with AD but does Magic Damage too, which is something that has been removed or reworked on many other champs (and also Muramana).
  • Touching on his spell names -- the theme of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse is really cool but it really underutilised on a champ like Yorick. His spells are only vaguely related to each respective horseman, and Omen of Famine especially is an offender -- is Yorick starving? Is the ghoul starving? "Ravenous" implies to me more of a "mindlessly and destructively hungry" feel than "famine-stricken." These should definitely be renamed.
  • His ult is actually the least interesting part of his kit, IMO. Since I view the ghouls as being personal projections of Yorick's anguish or fury or will or whatever, it doesn't make sense or feel satisfying to the fantasy I have when playing him to bring a champion or himself back to life.

Might come back to the thread to write more, but I gotta go right now. Super thrilled to see where you take this, Xelnath! I know the Gravedigger's in good hands!
I was gonna take the time to write out a reply, but this post describes most of my opinions perfectly.

A few people have expressed interest in making him more necromancer-like, but honestly I like the gravedigger aesthetic better - the "keeper of the dead" motif that Yorick has now is more down-to-earth yet honestly creepier than any sort of lich could hope to be, and I'm also a big fan of the shovel. *WHACK*

As for whether I prefer the ghouls as spell effects or actual minions, definitely the latter. Even though they scale horribly into lategame, the feeling of power that they can give you during the midgame when you send a small army of ravenous undead at your opponent is unmatched by any other champion.