Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGameJunkie View Post
The facts disagree with your narrow-minded assessment.
The fact is a champions rate of play, winrate is nothing todo with how they play or their mechanics. If it were then this topic wouldn't exist and Xelnath wouldn't be head deep in the middle of a Xerath remake. You do not comprehend this, which is why you are clueless and are in no position to even debate the subject.


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Obtero

Junior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
Maybe you should also add in some character to the ghouls(Jokes/taunts). Sort of like a darkling type of minion from "The Darkness".

As for the 1 or 2 option. Why not both? Switch his ult to a toggle that causes ghouls to rampage with a special ability then self destruct after a few seconds leaving you without ghouls during CD.


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Keikomatsui

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Xel, both of those ideas sound really fricken awesome


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DonnFirinne

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity

Second most toxic actually. The most toxic kind of experience is playing a champion that is terrible earlygame, midgame and only good when the stars align and hell becomes frosty. Champions such as Pre remake nerfed Eve/Xin and current Veigar/Mordekaiser/Heimerdinger all fall into this category. People want to play these champions because they have an attachment to them, they know they suck, they know they could play something else filling the same role but they won't. Yorick has something going for him, even if endgame he becomes demoted to "Support" (due to his ultimate), at least he contributes to a team positively when played well. This is one of the reasons he is actually played as a support in tournaments sometimes.


Anyways if Yorick were to be readjusted, it'd be nice if his Ghouls acted more like Elises Spiderlings and only attacked the things near him or the things he was attacking or if there was some actual reward for killing the ghouls like spiderlings. The current situation is, damned if you do, damned if you don't because the ghouls are disposable, too disposable. There is no point in killing them, they are too fast to avoid and they die on their own within the time it takes you to kill them.

So I have Two Ideas I'd like to share with you.

Twin Shadows Method - Make the ghosts immune to all damage and die after they have preformed one attack. Keeps him unique and takes away his endgame weakness (ghouls dying to AoE instantly). This makes them less of a disposable pet and more of a two part spell that looks like a pet.
The Orianna Method - Killing units with his auto attacks (The shovel) plays a digging animation that grants him a ghoul which follows him around like spiderlings and are controlled with his spells similar to Orianna's Ball. This "digging" passive has an internal cooldown so killing his ghouls ends up having meaning, and Yorick actually wants to keep his ghouls alive instead of spamming them at you. Proper Risk/Reward.


TLDR - The problem as I see it in regards to Yorick, some champions can't get near him because they can't kill the ghouls. Other champions flat out ignore him because they can kill the ghouls extremely easily which is also the problem Yorick has endgame. Ghouls need a total rework.
What if Yorick's omens were stances instead of ghoul casts? And he would accumulate different ghouls based on his stance when he killed things? Then he could get bonus stats based on how many of each ghoul he had (AD from one, MR from another). Nothing too major, just something to make sure Yorick has to consider what ghouls he's creating. Maybe to keep the number of ghouls down, he gets stacks when he kills minions and creeps, extra stacks for killing champions, and when he gets a few stacks the ghoul is summoned, consuming the stacks?


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JGVariety

Senior Member

06-29-2013

I personally feel like the "Army of Ghouls" feel can be fixed in a few ways:

1) VU on Yorick and / or the Ghouls; the Ghouls as of now are really small and I personally don't find represent the whole menacing / scary "Ghoul" theme due to their size and looks (some people even fine them cute)

2) Yorick usually spams spam spams; this can somewhat be an opportunity to give him something (maybe on his Passive or Ult) where once he Summons x amount of Ghouls, he will get a new sort of Ghoul that does y.


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homiehomes

Junior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
This is unprecedentedly good feedback. ZenonTheStoic is helping me gather feedback on the EU German forums as well.

So my general take aways so far:
  • The general fantasy Yorick players have is very consistent and unsatisfied.
  • Yorick is much more offensive to players than I had imagined.
  • Yorick players come in two major categories.
  • - Pick Yorick for his Theme (Necromancer)
  • - Pick Yorick for his Raw Power (Broken sustain/poke)

This guy will probably be a much more severe rework than Xerath. However, it seems clear what direction he must go:

1) Yorick must feel like he controls an "Army of the Damned" - multiple minions, not one powerful one
2) Yorick must feel like he can make skillful plays, using his ghouls.
3) Yorick opponents must feel like they can outplay his moves.

Some Yorick players show that they appreciate how powerful and uncounterable Yorick is. However, this is not healthy for league, as I think most players will agree. The surprise to me is that these Yorick players feel that he prevents other, worse, champion playstyles from becoming dominant in top lane.

If this is true, it means we may need to simultaneously investigate those issues, if Yorick is the last bastion counter champ.... I will confer with higher skilled players to see if this is consistently true.

Either way, his "no-brain" playstyle clearly must go.
no brain play style? PLEASE look at singed.. singed can do well against virtually any hero since you can just proxy farm and proceed to become an unstoppable force. oh look enemy top laner counter picked me with kayle, EXCEPT IM NOT ACTUALLY LANING. oh look they sent 2 people to get me while im proxyfarming at their base at 10mins, too bad im worth no gold sitting at 0/5 (but still by far the most farmed in the game). basically singed is a game changing character who is low risk high return, literally all u do is mindlessly walk around with Q turned on and win. helppp!!!


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DomonuT

Senior Member

06-29-2013

I love that he has all these minions to do his bidding. The idea of using the dead necromancer style is an amazing concept and is my favorite type of mage. He's a little bit like Heimerdinger (who is, without a doubt, my favorite champion) just, you know, viable. :P He can set up shop and do "albeit fairly temporary" proxy farming and that's a really fun strategy for me.

I like it when my opponent just gets overrun with ghouls and they fall to them.

I dislike when the ghouls make bad 'decisions' ie chasing an opponent into their turret when there are minions closer.


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Lone Turtle

Member

06-29-2013

It would be really cool if you could feel like you have my control of his ghouls rather then just click the champion with the ghoul spell and hope they don't run in a bush so they get what seems like bugged sometimes. So yea 2 would be awesome.


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NotKevinGuy

Junior Member

06-29-2013

I first played Yorick when he was free after he came out, and was rather disappointed with the minions, so I dropped him. A few months ago I picked him up in ranked on the PBE and was amazed at him, not just his raw power, but how much fun the character was suddenly. It felt as if the ghouls (while weak) were powerful suddenly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Dawn Mage View Post
you just drop gouls and hope the enemy is dumb enough to stay in them with out recalling or having sustain. So playing Yorick feels like a test of how good the enemies are rather than a test of how good you are, and I felt discouraged to keep playing Yorick.
This is really what it comes down too, I started playing Yorick on live and initially did incredibly well, but now I sit in Silver 1 and it seems that suddenly I'm weak again. Not from raw power mind you, but some how, despite my keeping the enemy top lane out of... well... lane, they match my creeps, and get jungle ganks to get them a kill or two. After that it's just how many kills are they going to farm off me before the lane phase ends.

Yorick's play is very counter-intuitive too I think. Your Q requires you to get close, but your W and E say "Stay back and poke". So you stay back and poke, but your W's slow isn't anything at early levels which leaves you only one feasible option. Max E, poke the **** out of the enemy, hope they're dumb enough to try and fight you after you harrass them down to half health. Have your minions stomp on them.

I'm late but

What is the fantasy of playing Yorick?
I get to hobble around digging graves for enemies, when they charge I summon my army of minions to either distract them as I'm running away or demolish them as I turn around and unload my shovel on their faces.

What are the high moments of Yorick?
High moments of Yorick? Very simple, the minion plays that can be made. In one game (It was PBE, I have the replay still) I was harassing a Voli, then LeBlanc chased after me. I anticipated her snare so I dropped my w behind me as I was running past Volibear's first tower. (Yeah, I was pushing their second top tower) Sure enough, LeBlanc tosses her slow/snare at me, and sure enough my minion tanks it, preventing it from silencing me so I turned around and dropped my E and Q and forced her to run seeing as I had everything on cooldown and so did she. Tank skill shots for teamates with W all day.

What do you dislike most about playing Yorick?
Ultimate. So. Waht. The only purpose of it is to ult your ADC or carry, but really it feels like a weak version of Zilean's ult. Use it on your ADC have a slight boost in damage til that sucker gets focused and either your ghost dies, or the ADC dies and activates the ghost (and then dies again.) or use it on your AP carry right before they get instagibbed and then watch them wreck faces from the grave. In either case you only bought them 10 seconds which could be enough, but seriously. Zilean ult 0.1 Using it feels like a lose-lose situation.

What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
You got rid of Wit's End's mana-depletion on hit which seems like it would be a perfect counter for him, oh seriously? Yorick's biggest weakness in lane is his mana dependance. So it's common for me as a Yorick player to skip on the health potions and just buy mana potions. The E will sustain him. So if you can out last Yorick's mana pool you're fine, otherwise he'll poke you whenever you try and last hit.

How do you win a game against Yorick?
Play passive and farm. If you can out last his tear and 5 mana potions, you'll be fine. Until then hug that tower. Not even Vlad can face him.

What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
I don't face Yorick. If I do face Yorick, I'm also playing Yorick. I enjoy punishing inferior Yorick's for their lack understanding of the champion. (I say from my high tier of Silver 1, I'm such a terrible person some times.)
Seriously though, if I see a Yorick up their going against me in Top lane I just give the lane to someone else, I don't like even trying to fight him.


How does Yorick lose a game?
By not pushing your towers by the 20 minute mark, Yorick really has no late game. The ghouls don't scale well enough with damage to be of any use, his tankiness is okay, but it does nothing with no damage. Pretty much, you have to hope he doesn't bury you (pun intended) in the first 10 minutes of the game.
The other thing you can do is win the other two lanes, if Mid and Bot both lose, Yorick kind of doesn't matter.

So yeah, Yorick is fun... But probably currently because he's broken. I'm excited to see Yorick 2.0 in the future.


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Spectre06

Senior Member

06-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
First off, thanks SO much for taking a look at him Xelnath. I really feel like Yorick is one of the more unique and cool concepts in the game and is easily my favorite champ but the execution was so poor that he just got nerfed until the point where he wasn't destroying people then left alone.

Number 2 is the option everyone is going to want but then again, that's what was tried for in the first place and it failed miserably. The ghouls should absolutely have a unique personality and should do cool (skillbased) things for Yorick but the challenge is going to be how to do that without making him require a stupid amount of micromanagement of the ghouls. Having multiple ghouls out at once isn't going to allow you to control them... they need to act on their own intelligently. That said, having PREDICTABLE actions will still let you use skill with them instead of just spamming or having to control 3 at once.

Consider Zyra as an example of better execution of this theme. She has unique "pets" that do individual things and require you to pay attention to them. That said, she's a ranged and Yorick was supposed to be more of a melee (and really, Yorick's ghouls should still move or at least do unique effects after being cast).

Just a scenario, but what about letting him gap close on a ghoul skillshot (maybe activated again with another button press like Lissandra's?) and descend on the enemy like a horde of zombies. Fighting next to the zombie horde is what I always picture... Yorick on top of his enemy and releasing the rest of the ghoul horde with unique abilities so that all are attacking at once and slowing the enemy down to the point where he is engulfed. Still powerful but having actual counterplay of dodging a shot and requiring Yorick to commit to melee instead of just spamming spells from a distance. I think that's more the kind of thing I think people are looking for... he can still have a spell to close distance (like almost all the playable melees do) but make him a melee in the end that is surrounded by a ghoul army. People want to smack opponents with their shovel!

There's a ton of potential in the Yorick theme but I'm not going to lie and say it won't be insanely difficult to execute. Keep posting questions in this thread and we'll be happy to answer as best we can... I really want to get this right.