Let's talk about Yorick

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Acastius

Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It's becoming very clear that the community is very split on this issue. It's unlikely that we'll satisfy everyone, so the best call will likely be "what is the most awesome guy w/ minions" character we can make.

It's unfortunate there's not a strong sense of cohesion towards what Yorick should be, but that mostly points to the issue of Yorick not being a very clear design.
I've made a couple of posts (1, 2) in this thread already, but I always post after you go offline so I'm not sure if they're disappearing in the swarm. ... But I'm about to do that again.

I understand the desire for a powerful necromantic character, but I really don't think Yorick is the character for it. He has an established persona, and it's not one of being a powerful necromancer - but rather a powerful melee fighter who has ghoulish creatures that aid him.

Kit 3 (the new one you posted) is cool because it gives you control of the ghouls, but I dislike it because it removes any uniqueness from them. They're all just generic ghouls at that point. They help him in the same way ammo helps a soldier. Every bullet is useful, but every bullet is the same. When you fire a bullet, there's no attachment, or concern about it's well being.

When they are doing specific things, when they're acting out in specific ways, suddenly they start to get personality. And people start to form an attachment. (If you've seen "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" think about those bullets.)

What if ghouls stuck with Yorick until his ability hits someone, but hitting the button again recalled them?

So Yorick hit's Q and dashes forward, when his shovel impacts someone Inky stays on whatever Yorick hit, harassing until it dies. If Yorick hit's Q again, Inky comes back. If Inky dies, Yorick's Q is weaker until he respawns.

So when you go hard on your target and fire all your abilities off, all three of your ghouls chase after the target. You're then forced to decide if you want to call them back... or just let them focus that target.

If each of the different ghouls 'living' give Yorick a passive, when they're lost Yorick feels the effects in a unique way. But if they're just ammo, they only affect one thing, damage.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Obviously we need the ghoul commander more than *another* strong melee fighter (especially if they "ignore the ghouls", because why not play a different melee fighter then?). His unique theme should win out over players crying that they're losing their "reliable top".

I'm not going to lie, I also considered Yorick a "go to" for when I'm forced to play top and I don't know who's a good choice against the enemy's pick.


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TheDeFecto

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.

Basic idea: Yorick is a close-range, melee bruiser. He can use his ghouls to gain ranged damage and harass, but only by putting them at risk.

I also mocked up what it would look like when 3 ghouls were protecting Yorick defensively.

Attachment 720849\

Edit: Updated to be all physical damage, as suggested.
I like his new Q ALOT, but I must say, I don't see Yorick being they type of champion to exactly "leap" over his target. when I see him I see a hulking mass of dead flesh, not a necrolympic athlete! Maybe a short stun with a dizzying effect on the opponent would suffice, I mean, I sure would be light headed if I got hit in the head with a shovel.


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Godunderscor

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Just a quick question Xelnath:

Have you played Yorick lately? Really played with him and focused on finding what of his gameplay you like?

Boiling it down, I'm a fan of limited invincibility champions. Yorick and Galio each have a flavor of this. Galio self-casting his shield, Yorick managing his full ghoul spam.

What are you trying to keep of Yorick? Don't look at what you could turn him in to; look at making him the strongest, most condensed flavor of what he is. Remove dissenting flavors.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acastius View Post
I've made a couple of posts (1, 2) in this thread already, but I always post after you go offline so I'm not sure if they're disappearing in the swarm. ... But I'm about to do that again.

I understand the desire for a powerful necromantic character, but I really don't think Yorick is the character for it. He has an established persona, and it's not one of being a powerful necromancer - but rather a powerful melee fighter who has ghoulish creatures that aid him.

Kit 3 (the new one you posted) is cool because it gives you control of the ghouls, but I dislike it because it removes any uniqueness from them. They're all just generic ghouls at that point. They help him in the same way ammo helps a soldier. Every bullet is useful, but every bullet is the same. When you fire a bullet, there's no attachment, or concern about it's well being.

When they are doing specific things, when they're acting out in specific ways, suddenly they start to get personality. And people start to form an attachment. (If you've seen "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" think about those bullets.)

What if ghouls stuck with Yorick until his ability hits someone, but hitting the button again recalled them?

So Yorick hit's Q and dashes forward, when his shovel impacts someone Inky stays on whatever Yorick hit, harassing until it dies. If Yorick hit's Q again, Inky comes back. If Inky dies, Yorick's Q is weaker until he respawns.

So when you go hard on your target and fire all your abilities off, all three of your ghouls chase after the target. You're then forced to decide if you want to call them back... or just let them focus that target.

If each of the different ghouls 'living' give Yorick a passive, when they're lost Yorick feels the effects in a unique way. But if they're just ammo, they only affect one thing, damage.

I think you just described yorick as he is now. His ghouls are nothing but personality-less bullets, that he fires and forgets.

Giving him a gap closer, like you mentioned, would make him feel like generic bruiser, and we don't need another one of those in the league.

I think a better way to add personality (just generalizing) would be to look at something already existing and see how it could function.


for example, his new ultimate seems to be based around HotS Zerg "swarm host" So what if we looked at everything as if it were starcraft for a second (again just for discussion purposes, not saying this should be done)


I feel like yorick should be the "ultralisk" while his ghouls should be a mix of zerglings, roaches, and/or hydralisks. Granted we can't have SC2 kind of control on league. but it's just to see how "unit composition" would work on him. (obviously needing special effects)

it all boils down to how each unit would be controlled given the LoL input scheme. and that in my opinion is where the real problem lies... control. As we can see having a "homing missile" style ghoul control just isn't doing it for most people (although it is effective)


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Markie

Senior Member

07-01-2013

What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
1.He has infinite sustain and mana after he gets tear
2.In a team fight if a player on my team dies first its a 2 player swing (meaning 4v6 so when behind theres even less incentive to risk it on a teamfight)
3.in a team fight my team is forced to immediately focus him so hes not able to ult the adc
4.this is the victims fault ussually but if caught out he can chase you to the ends of the earth

How do you win a game against Yorick?
1.If your champ has mana you dont have enough of it to kill him without help so just farm safely
2.if your champ does have mana he gas more sustain than you so you have to be absolutely sure you will come out ahead in this trade and be sure that you can trade again soon to kill him and then you need to be sure you have enough health to survive his ult because this time hes not afraid of towers
3.Dont feed and hope someone else on your team gets fed
4.at low elo when people blow at team fights tbh hes not good late game because people either just dont wait for him, run in 1 at a time, or the adc flies into melee range like a beast i dont know about high elo but the first 2 options mean his ult is useless

What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
1.Its like getting swain in mid lane theres no plus side, at no point do you see either of those champs and think "well this should be fun" i have a whole rant ready for swain when he gets one of these but well save it for that time

How does Yorick lose a game?
1.if he plays really stupidly in lane and feeds he can lose, but anyone whos playd yorick twice will do fine at this
2.his team feeds (2nd most likely)
3.No clear winner after laning, but the other team has worse team fight mechanics and worse decision making (3rd most likely)
4.the number one way all bronze rated/normal games are lost "team fighting" which at this ridiculous level of play where only the most honed and hardened can keep up with the demand on skill mean running into the other team 1 at a time to save the last dude that died instead of letting the first dude just get caught and die you have now been aced trying to be heroes...SMH -.-
5.luck (the most likely in an evenly matched game where both team have very similar power levels...the only thing is...DIBS ON GOKU!! Ha eat it bronzies i just won! Who you gonna get now? Aint no one I REPEAT NO ONE beats Goku


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Dynamod123

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Mind if I throw out my kit ideas? Since everyone is doing it:

I think Yorick should be a sort of necromancer myself, getting to summon ghouls by killing units on the field. The ghouls themselves should behave like Elise's spiderlings, following Yorick around and attacking stuff he attacks, but then the spells themselves could modify their behavior.

Unholy Covenant: Every 3rd unit Yorick kills grants him a ghoul. Large units and Champions grant a bonus Ghoul immediately.

Yorick can have up to 6 ghouls at once.

Omen of War: Yorick commands his ghouls to charge into battle. A grave stone comes out of the ground, dealing physical damage and knocking up enemies while the ghouls move to that location, attacking anything nearby the stonehead with increased frevor.

Omen of Pestilence: Yorick commands his ghouls to spread disease. for a set amount of time, Yorick's auto attacks and the attacks of his ghouls deal bonus magic damage over time and slow the target.

This debuff could spread to additional nearby targets based on the number of ghouls alive.

Omen of Famine: Yorick commands his ghouls to defile the land. an area of effect around the ghoul's position (or Yorick if there is none) becomes defiled, reducing the attack damage and ability power of enemy champions within the area of effect.

This area of effect should increase based on the number of ghouls alive.

Omen of Death: Yorick summons additional ghouls and commands them to kill. These ghouls should be temporary, but should stack onto the maximum possible by Yorick's passive.

This ability would create an area of effect similar to Ganplanks ult, but instead of dropping cannonballs, graves open out of the ground randomly, damaging anything above it by releasing a ghoul. These ghouls stay within the area of the ultimate until they spot a champion, chasing the champion and attacking them for the duration of this ability. If there's no champions to attack, they move on to the next available target.

With this sort of kit, Yorick becomes similar to Trundle: A debuff heavy melee champion who excells at controlling zones of his influence.


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Shenalia

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Minion commander, all the way. When he was released, he was touted as a necromancer with this swarm of ghouls at his command. Please, focus on this. I would also like to throw my vote after the "Omen" theme for his abilities. I always liked that about him.

Just wanted to add something to this... in his current iteration, he has three different ghouls, with three different powers. What is the reason for keeping him to three ghouls if you're taking away the fact that each would have their own power? The new kit being proposed has them working as a group; there's no distinction or identity to each ghoul anymore, but you're keeping him restricted to the three. Please, either make each one distinct with personality... or make them a true swarm.


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aceofsween

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I must say, I love the idea that Yorick's abilities would cause his Ghouls to do something. Basically, I see them as being a lot like Elise's spiderlings, but with more direct involvement to his gameplay. However, in this since I'm finding it a little hard to figure out how he keep summoning them. One thing I really like about Elise is that over time you gain more Spiderlings through ranking up your ultimate. I don't know how to make this work on Yorick other than tying it into his levels. You could tie it into ranks of his ultimate, but that's borrowing even more heavily from Elise. Also, I'm not sure about how to introduce managing them that doesn't punish him outside of the lane phase. Originally, I was thinking that killing minions/neutrals would give him charges that summon ghouls up to a cap, but that might be tedious in late game situations where Yorick needs to go off and farm to get his ghouls back so he can contribute. Instead, maybe spell casts (borrowing from Elise again) could do the trick.

Either way, making a kit around controlling his Ghouls would be insanely awesome I think. The two abilities I'm thinking of right now are sending the ghouls in a straight line then having them circle around Yorick. I would think that the more Ghouls he has up, the more effective these abilities should be, either in damage or the range they effect. So maybe 1 ghoul with the straight-line skill shot is the size of Kha'zix's Void Spikes, but 4 ghouls would be the size of Lux's ultimate (just the width, not the range).

Thoughts?


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Dynamod123

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceofsween View Post
I must say, I love the idea that Yorick's abilities would cause his Ghouls to do something. Basically, I see them as being a lot like Elise's spiderlings, but with more direct involvement to his gameplay. However, in this since I'm finding it a little hard to figure out how he keep summoning them. One thing I really like about Elise is that over time you gain more Spiderlings through ranking up your ultimate. I don't know how to make this work on Yorick other than tying it into his levels. You could tie it into ranks of his ultimate, but that's borrowing even more heavily from Elise. Also, I'm not sure about how to introduce managing them that doesn't punish him outside of the lane phase. Originally, I was thinking that killing minions/neutrals would give him charges that summon ghouls up to a cap, but that might be tedious in late game situations where Yorick needs to go off and farm to get his ghouls back so he can contribute. Instead, maybe spell casts (borrowing from Elise again) could do the trick.

Either way, making a kit around controlling his Ghouls would be insanely awesome I think. The two abilities I'm thinking of right now are sending the ghouls in a straight line then having them circle around Yorick. I would think that the more Ghouls he has up, the more effective these abilities should be, either in damage or the range they effect. So maybe 1 ghoul with the straight-line skill shot is the size of Kha'zix's Void Spikes, but 4 ghouls would be the size of Lux's ultimate (just the width, not the range).

Thoughts?
This was exactly my idea! :P