Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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Delta37Raven

Junior Member

07-01-2013

The third kit looks amazing... can we just launch him now Mr Xelnath? PS: After this if you don't make me hate Yorrick and especially after what you have done for Xerath, my 2nd favorite made that name isn't swain, you will be my favoritist rioter ever... Can you be the one to handle Irelia if she ever gets that rework.

I also think nerfing the ghouls to make them a joke would trivalize yorick. I mean sure he'd still have poke. But what would the point of his passive be or how would he become a deent melee fighter if his ghouls had literally no threatening presence and feel that the Elise way would be much funner and more great for the grave digger as well as those against him. Giving him say the Oriana model would sort of rob two champions, that of Ori because that is defently her whole theem and sort of apeal,and yorick himself.Giving him masses of them that are used up as he cast spells would weaken him far too much late game I think, and that already is one of his problems. If he had like five ghouls that explode after each spell, he basically has five spells, one of them now being a poke, in the middle of team fights before he is nothing.


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BaronVonPwny

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

I have to say, being able to summon an army of the dead around you as an ultimate sounds amazing, and I'd be disappointed without it.
But, on a design note, to merge the two play styles - why not give players the choice in game, between bruiser and caster? Your 3rd kit basically gave me the thought - why not give Yorick buffs while he has his ghouls around him, but when he sends out his ghouls it enables more options for plays. For instance, with your W idea - you can just let the explosion happen purely around you, or you can send out a ghoul to the enemy, and use the explosion then. His Q could provide bonus damage to his wraith for a duration, but then Yorick loses the buffs from the wraith itself, while it is detached.
Its just a thought, and there may be issues with putting too much on his kit to fully make that idea viable, but, that might be one way you can have both a bruiser hit-stuff playstyle, and a caster, control-ghouls-and-laugh playstyle at the same time.


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Flytrap

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It's becoming very clear that the community is very split on this issue. It's unlikely that we'll satisfy everyone, so the best call will likely be "what is the most awesome guy w/ minions" character we can make.

It's unfortunate there's not a strong sense of cohesion towards what Yorick should be, but that mostly points to the issue of Yorick not being a very clear design.
League doesn't need another "LOLRIGHTCLICK" champion. I feel like Yorick could flesh out a new role that we haven't really seen yet.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It's becoming very clear that the community is very split on this issue. It's unlikely that we'll satisfy everyone, so the best call will likely be "what is the most awesome guy w/ minions" character we can make.

It's unfortunate there's not a strong sense of cohesion towards what Yorick should be, but that mostly points to the issue of Yorick not being a very clear design.
you hit the nail on the head xelnath. i started playing right around when yorick came out... i used to be all about the new champs, but yorick confused me way to much and i never picked him up until just recently this year.

the best way to go about this one in my mind is to try to stay as close as you can to his original kit. obviously the little toxic ghouls will have to go but the ghouls or spells that replace them have to be close enough to what he is now that his current following stay loyal while still making him appealing to be picked up by those who have shunned him.

it is a tough one. I have a few more ideas that could work, and some of the skills you have presented have some potential as well. the last passive you showed was getting a lot closer. for now though i must sleep


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonPwny View Post
I have to say, being able to summon an army of the dead around you as an ultimate sounds amazing, and I'd be disappointed without it.
But, on a design note, to merge the two play styles - why not give players the choice in game, between bruiser and caster? Your 3rd kit basically gave me the thought - why not give Yorick buffs while he has his ghouls around him, but when he sends out his ghouls it enables more options for plays. For instance, with your W idea - you can just let the explosion happen purely around you, or you can send out a ghoul to the enemy, and use the explosion then. His Q could provide bonus damage to his wraith for a duration, but then Yorick loses the buffs from the wraith itself, while it is detached.
Its just a thought, and there may be issues with putting too much on his kit to fully make that idea viable, but, that might be one way you can have both a bruiser hit-stuff playstyle, and a caster, control-ghouls-and-laugh playstyle at the same time.
this is the same sort of idea i came up with. go to page 167 and its the last post on the page if you want to see what i thought of


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Whisla

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It's becoming very clear that the community is very split on this issue. It's unlikely that we'll satisfy everyone, so the best call will likely be "what is the most awesome guy w/ minions" character we can make.

It's unfortunate there's not a strong sense of cohesion towards what Yorick should be, but that mostly points to the issue of Yorick not being a very clear design.
I think to clear things up abit, Yorick is the guy where everything he does stirs the dead, every move he makes raises a differant soul to do a job. He himself bashes peoples faces in while he minions are there to help him do that.

The classic necromancer is seen probably more as an AP summoner who uses the minions as the primary focus of his dmg where as Yorick uses them to help what he is already doing. Leagues is missing the classic "Summons minions to fight for him" champ but thats because alot of what iv seen is that leagues doesnt really allow for controling minions very well or micro managing. So yorick is probably the next best thing. I believe if you really put your mind to it you could have the best of both worlds and make one extremely bad ass champ, your kits already show that your thinking of blending the two concepts in a rather decent way now its jsut up to finding the way that keeps old players happy with fixing how yorick interacts with his ghouls.


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King of Ferrets

Member

07-01-2013

I personally liked the earlier ideas where having ghouls added something to your abilities, but they were bruiser abilities; Yorick the straight bruiser is boring as hell, Yorick the caster doesn't seem to fit.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.

Basic idea: Yorick is a close-range, melee bruiser. He can use his ghouls to gain ranged damage and harass, but only by putting them at risk.

I also mocked up what it would look like when 3 ghouls were protecting Yorick defensively.

Attachment 720849\

Edit: Updated to be all physical damage, as suggested.
The only thing I fear is how bad it's going to feel if the enemy kills all his ghouls, assuming I've understood how the respawn mechanic works. On versions 1 and 2, I thought that the mechanic was "the ghouls respawn after 30 seconds", so if all are killed relatively close together they will all get up after 30 seconds. But version 3 gives the impression that only one gets up every 30 seconds and it's just going to feel so quiet without them.


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Awesomepenguin

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

@xelnath

you say people say laning against yorick is "not fun" what about all the people that find it fun to lane as yorick as he is now? do you ever think re-working his entire kit will just ruin that whole experience for them? what about champions people find it "not fun" to lane against other than yorick? i personally hate laning against a jayce, teemo, or some other crazy zoning champion, but i don't see any rush to re-work those champions because they are "not fun" to lane against. difference is people know how to counter those lanes or at least a general idea of how. yorick is not as popular so people dont know how to handle him and there for "not fun" to lane against...

you guys seem to have a constant problem of doing this. you guys didnt like the fact that lane phase was too "passive" so you made turrets weaker, nerfed pots, nerfed most sustain abilities, limited it to 5 pots each, and made it more rewarding for people to play aggressive. well, what about the other side of the coin because of this? do you think it is fun to be ganked under your turret at level 3, or being forced to sit at your turret because of a high poke champion IE jayce. while doing this you thought it would make the game go at a much faster pace, yet games still take 45-50 minutes to finish 60%+ of the time.

you guys changed a lot of stuff to make lane phase end faster but now you are reworking champions because of how they play during the lane phase?

another time you guys did this, you guys nerfed the aggressive runes and masteries because it ruined the fun for lane phase for those unable to stop it, but then claim you want lane phase to be more aggressive and say that counter should be based on skill, such as dodging, juking, baiting, landing skill shots, etc.

people building tanky early to counter act the aggressive lane play made it "not fun" for those that ganked at level 3 under the turret, so you nerfed tanky runes. when season 3 came out it was all about stacking HP since with all the armor pen and magic pen that was the only thing people could do, but it made it "not fun" for those that wanted to use those items and yet you ignored the people that had fun with hp stacking.

you only seem to listen to half of the story then claim you know whats best. prime example is this re-work just because yorick is "not fun" for people to lane against because they dont know how to stop him while ignoring all the people saying they love the way yorick is played and how much fun they have with his current set-up, that he only needs MINOR fixes and not a re-work. yorick is known for his insane sustain, his ability to push with his ghouls, being able to sit cast his E at range and heal from it hitting minions while being poked by a high poke champion, and being a brick wall in lane but not becoming an OP power house because of it. then, wanting to take that away and ruining him by making his sustain life steal by wanting him to become an OP power house like jayce, vi, darius, khaz, etc. just ruins the game play for those that actually enjoy him.

Master Yi is "not fun" to play against because of him being able to back door with his ult, but on the other hand if you take his ult away or change it, he is no longer master yi. people have to learn how to fight against it.

Teemo is annoying as **** with his mushrooms but without them he isnt teemo. people have to suck it up and either deal with them, buy oracles, or get magic resist just to fight back.

well its fun for those but not for the other people you going to rework them next to destroy the whole champion? it has already happened to twitch, him having that 60 second stealth was really fun but you guys didnt like it because it made people play defensively. what about sivr? when you guys re-worked her the change to her passive was amazing, but there was 0 point in changing her W. you claimed it was because sivir players would run out of mana constantly, or it just wasnt fun enough, while EVERY sivir player enjoyed her old W and had no problems with it.

when you nerfed darius' ult (twice mind you) both nerfs didnt need to happen. you only had to change one thing. if you changed his ult to physical damage instead of true damage then it would have fixed all the issues and armor pen would make a lot of sense on him.

it's a game based on skill if people cant learn how to counter champions without "picking a counter champion" then shouldn't it be their fault for losing their lane? IE if you play against a leblanc mid if she is walking over you all lane phase, you should be buying early magic resist even if it means selling it later because it stops her in her tracks. if you don't buy any kind of early magic resist and let her do this then you should lose your lane, and learn that you should have gotten the magic resist and now you know for next time. not coming to riot complaining that lane phase with her is "not fun" because you can't do anything.

no need to fix something that isn't broken.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapp Add1ct View Post
I would really like to see Yorick taken the bruiser route. To me at least, League can have a really great necromancer type character and Yorick isn't that character. Just from looking at him you don't see someone who summons ghosts, you see a character who bashes you with a shovel. When playing Yorick (to me) the best part of his kit is bashing someone in the face and the summoning just feels like necessary but boring gameplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It's becoming very clear that the community is very split on this issue. It's unlikely that we'll satisfy everyone, so the best call will likely be "what is the most awesome guy w/ minions" character we can make.

It's unfortunate there's not a strong sense of cohesion towards what Yorick should be, but that mostly points to the issue of Yorick not being a very clear design.
I don't think the community is as split as you think. The general consensussince the start of the thread has been that the ghouls NEED more interaction involved. and one of the biggest problems GD has is "too many generic bruisers" even going so far as to call out the "league of bruisers" on more than one occassion. We don't need more bruisers in the league...

The guy you quoted said yorick should be a melee bruiser because it is "necessary but boring" i don't want to play something boring just because it's "necessary".

Look back at all the original design points people want.

*yoricks ghouls need more interaction
*yoricks ghouls need more personality
*yoricks ghouls need to have impactful yet counterable impact

notice a common theme? People don't want to change yorick... they want to change his ghouls. So he can fight alongside his army of the damned. and NOT just sit back with free harass. So they can hit people with their shovel

He shouldn't necessarily play like a minion "commander" but more like a "squad leader".
He tells his team what to do and where to be, but he has to be in the middle of the action if he wants to succeed.

I feel you had something with the "marking" concept. Where ghouls will give some nice debuffs, but to capitalize on them fully yorick would have to do some shovel bashing.

You're right you can't make everyone happy, and i think the problem with your last iteration is 3 ghouls... all controlled by alt + click... that would feel like one unit, and people probably aren't into that idea.