Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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FinalBoss Wilson

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I'm thinking there has to be a good mix between fighting and ghouls that can be reached in Yorick.

On to my suggestions:

The problem I have with his E is while you can send your ghouls out on the attack you can't pull them back easily. I suggest his e work like Orianna's command protect, except you can cast it on enenmy or and ally. You can cast them on a Enemy for them to pop up there or self or ally cast for them to protect a target.

The life steal portion of the E really belongs on his Q adding risk to its use if he want sustain he needs to go hit something.

Finally I really love the new ult, but I ask that you consider adding that the first champion: Yorick or an ally dies in the vicinity of the ult's grave they return as a unholy revenant to keep some of the spirit of his old ult alive?

All in all I love the work your doing here, imaginatively reworking champions rather that tweaking numbers here or there. Whatever the final design is I'm sure I'll enjoy it.


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Done25

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Marks are good, because they force him to run from behind his minion line to "cash in" on his sustain. This is the big reason Yorick is so broken bad right now. Letting him use the Ghoul Dash to harass is fine, but he shouldn't get both harassment and lifesteal out of it, right?

Or are you arguing that because the enemy can blow up the ghouls while they are "munching" on the targets they hit, its fair?
I think the ghouls should give health on hit, rather than Yorick having to micromanage to hit as many marks as he can Skarner style. Because unlike Skarner, Yorick can't hit a bunch of targets at once with his Q in a fight. This makes it useless in combat, or OP in a stale lane where he can easily micromanage his heals.

By tieing the heal to the ghouls attacks, it gives the enemy a way to shut down his healing, simply kill the creatures when they come to attack.


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Nanilx1

Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I really wish someone would write a Riot Dictionary. I'm not sure which term to use.

Visual Upgrade - Focused on bringing the character up to modern day lol standards
Tweak - Minor changes to the character to improve game health.
Rework - Mechanical changes to the character to add strength and vulnerabilities.
Relaunch - A reboot of the character both visually and mechanically to create a cohesive fit in league of legends. (I consider Sejuani a relaunch)

A full rework means that the core philosophies of the character are out of line. In Yorick's case, his meaningless ghouls, choice of abilities and their interactions and his role in the game.

I strongly suspect the right places for a character like this are Top and/or Jungle. Support Yorick exists only because of his free, frustrating harassment.
Speaking of relaunches, do you think you could nudge Yorick into having a model update? His in game model looks nasty, and no, not nasty as in fits his theme nasty, I mean nasty as his textures are very low, especially on his hump thing when compared to some champions who are older than him.


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Whisla

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Marks are good, because they force him to run from behind his minion line to "cash in" on his sustain. This is the big reason Yorick is so broken bad right now. Letting him use the Ghoul Dash to harass is fine, but he shouldn't get both harassment and lifesteal out of it, right?

Or are you arguing that because the enemy can blow up the ghouls while they are "munching" on the targets they hit, its fair?
You mentioned in a past post that putting the ghouls in ahrms way could be the balanceing part. So yes the arguement is that by putting the ghouls in dnager with his E even if say it only worked lake a Malz mark where the ghouls could only focus for X amount of time would be balanced because the enemy could kill the ghouls and make yorick weaker for a good amount of time. This would let him keep his sustain "Feel" while adding some risk to how he is played.


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drzombieface

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Recruiter

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
What path leads to the strongest possible champion concept, with unique character, mechanics and personality?
This is really all about flavor over balance, but it's pretty much how I always wanted Yorick's reanimation abilities to culminate into this one, massive, powerful necromantic spell that would better fit the name of "Ultimate". (I had actually thought about this long before Thresh came out, which is probably why I like him so much.)

A dual name I came up with was "Slaves to the Sepulcher/ Rise of the Damned"

Passive: Units that die near Yorick leave behind a "Corpse" that decays away after 20/25/30 seconds, and every 30/20/10 seconds a Corpse spawns nearby Yorick or one of his active Ghouls. Yorick's Ghouls and friendly Champions get stronger based on the number of Corpses near Yorick. While this skill is on cooldown, Corpses are not produced by units. Yorick's Ghouls do not produce Corpses when they die.

Active: "Yoricks drives his shovel into the ground, channeling his dark powers throughout the surrounding earth. Tendrils of black magic, caressing the souls still clinging to their recently slaughtered hosts, rend the souls free, and force Yorick's dark will upon them, focusing their anger upon his enemies."

Yorick begins Channeling for 5 seconds. For each nearby Corpse, Yorick summons a Lesser Ghoul for each Corpse exhumed. Lesser Ghouls then seek out the nearest enemy Champions to attack them. Lesser Ghouls' damage is equal to a % of Yorick's bonus Attack Damage. Yorick may cancel the Channel to detonate each Lesser Ghoul, dealing damage based on his Ability Power, and healing him and surrounding allied Champions for a % of the damage each Lesser Ghoul did. At the end of the channel, if it was not cancelled, the Ghouls violently lash out with their final death stroke, dealing damage based on Yorick's Attack Damage.

The Lesser Ghouls basically act as Yorick's standard Ghouls, but while they can be attacked and are easily killed, similar to Ghouls, they do not decay over time (mostly because the spell was already a 5 second channel at the most.) I also tried to design this around working with multiple build types for Yorick, with different results resulting in different uses of the skill. It would give Yorick a choice, "This is a huge teamfight, do I want to be dealing more damage, or does my team need a little sustain to pull out on top?", rather than just, "Press R, target ADC, right- click until something interesting happens".


The idea behind giving Yorick and his allies a buff while Corpses are around is to balance out a little of the power- loss of Yorick being made more into a Necromancer than a straight up brawler. I wanted to have the theme of Yorick being made stronger by death, while also giving Yorick's ultimate a way to benefit both AD and AP Yorick, while supporting Hybrid Yorick as well. More build options than just the same thing over and over again every single game, like the current Yorick.



Another little tad of flavor was Yorick yelling "Let Death take you!" as he drives his shovel into the ground to begin the spell. Another bit of flavor would be for Yorick to walk while using his Shovel as a cane/walking stick to compensate for his hobble. While slowed, he could be using both hands on the shovel, almost to the point of dragging himself along the ground.


Hope this at least gives you some idea of what an enormous fan of Yorick basically has wet dreams about.


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Aesop

Member

07-01-2013

I really like the kit you've given us, but I have to say i'm more a fan of Summoner-Yorick, the summoner archetype has never really been hit on the head in league. Yorick, Heimerdinger, Zyra, and a few other champs come close, but they never really make me feel like my summons are what keeps me a threat, exept sometimes as Heimerdinger. I think Yorick has a lot of potential to be that, but I understand people who like what he is now. If we do end up seeing not-so-summoner Yorick, any chance we might see a summoner/necromancer in the future?


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Lightningfst

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Yorick Players:
What is the fantasy of playing Yorick?
Being that tanky bruiser that can contribute to a team fight and kill the enemy carries while saving your own.

What are the high moments of Yorick?
Building burst damage and watching people go wtf when they attempt to duel you.

What do you dislike most about playing Yorick?
Super mana intensive, really rails the item build into a few select items (see Manamune, Trinity/Iceborn, boots of course, then insert tanky items here).

Yorick Opponents:

What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
Constant poke with easy disengage.

How do you win a game against Yorick?
Hard engage him and do more damage early game - to the death! Get him to push and have jungler gank. Wait until he is out of mana to engage. Use the bush to deny ghouls vision, then counter engage. Use a disengage after killing Yorick while his ult is up so he can't finish you off. (this all coming from a Yorick player) Build lifesteal and negate the harass from his ghouls (this is why Cho and Nasus do ok in lane against him)

What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
Nothing. Always an intense matchup and a lot of work to kill.

How does Yorick lose a game?
Wrong itemization is the most common reason next to not enough farm. He needs to build burst damage and tankyness to be viable - so he is heavily item dependent.


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Space Lizard

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I feel like, as it is now, Yorick looks big enough to be an auto attacker, but he also has the promise of using ghouls in an interesting way that he fails to deliver. I think the pet dynamics really hold him back, but I think something kind of like the following could work:

Passive:
Yorick spawns a ghoul once every 30 seconds (which you can lower with CDR). The cooldown of this passive is reduced by 2 seconds every time Yorick auto attacks a champion. Every time Yorick kills an enemy champion, he spawns an additional ghoul.

Q:
Passive: Inky: If Inky is alive, he travels around Yorick in a circle, lowering the magic resistance of units he passes through by x/x/x/x/x for 1 second.
Active: Yorick strikes forward with his shovel (think J4's Q) dealing x physical damage. If Yorick strikes Inky with this attack, Inky explodes, dealing an additional y magic damage. Additionally, if Inky is hit by this effect Yorick gains x% attack speed and 50 range.

W:
Passive: Specter: If Specter is alive, units that attack Yorick receive x damage over 2 seconds, and are slowed by y%.
Active: Yorick's attacks deal an additional x magic damage. If Specter is alive, he is consumed and Yorick is surrounded by a field that slows all units in it by z%.

E:
Passive: Munchy: While Munchy is alive, Yorick's health regen increases by an additional x/x/x/x/x% per 1% health missing.
Active: Yorick gains x% lifesteal for y seconds. If Munchy is alive, he will move in the direction of the mouse, exploding upon the first target he hits and dealing y damage, in addition to marking them. Yorick can consume the mark by autoattacking to deal y damage and double the active lifesteal bonus for y seconds.

R: Well of Souls
Yorick summons a well of ghouls at target area. The well lasts for 6 seconds, and does continuous AoE damage. While in the well, the cooldown on Yorick's passive is halved.

_______________________

Thoughts on playstyle with this kit:

Passive:
The passive forces him to actively autoattack to spam, limiting his in lane aggression unless he's willing to force engages.

Q:
Inky acts as an AoE debuff around Yorick, that he can consume for burst damage if he times things properly. However, because enemies can see Inky move, they can see the burst damage coming and try to juke it. If the debuff is sufficiently high, choosing whether or not to consume it for the burst damage will be a valid concern, but gives high skillcap Yorick's a chance to utilize it for super high burst- by moving around Inky to get both the debuff and the burst damage with clever outplays.

W:
Yorick has no gap closer, and this iteration has reduced his ranged harass, so this helps him overcome ranged opponents in lane and helps him in teamfights when he's getting kited. It also allows him to peel, if he uses this active, and play like a brick wall that gets in the way of the enemy and your AD carry. I think the passive portion of this might be a little problematic, but I didn't want to introduce more ghoul movement because between Q and E, managing ghouls effectively will be hectic enough.

E:
Being purely lifesteal, Yorick has to work for his sustain. If he chooses to get a quick burst of sustain in the short term he'll give up his increased hp regen, and so opponents might choose then to start poking him down, knowing he'll be vulnerable while the school is on cooldown and before Munchy respawn. The active component gives Yorick a powerful move, but because it should explode on contact with minions it's a difficult one to use as well. Between this and his Q, he should have powerful burst and still feel very powerful in a straight up fist fight, because he still has plenty of raw stats, but it's harder for him to attack with this in range except in high skill scenarios.

Ult:
The ult is there to make Yorick feel like an unstoppable force, allowing him to use his buffs and debuffs more effectively as a fighter, but also giving him a good mage tool and zoning tool as well. With AP ratios and magic damage on his Q, E, and ultimate building mage Yorick would be plenty viable as a higher burst option, whereas an AD/Fighter Yorick would maintain that "lord of the dead" feel that i think some Yorick players get with him.


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Arance

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I approve of this new concept, this seems like the right direction. Controlling the Ghouls might get a bit awkward though. Some notes:

1. Passive says "If all 3 ghouls are alive, Yorick's Lanterns heals it instead." 'It'? What's it? The ghouls? All three? To full HP?

2. The E, would the ghouls stay and attack after the dash? Run back to Yorick? Tele back? That heal also seems excessive, marking a whole wave and getting AD x6 back in health...

3. Q is some sort of strange reverse Singed toss I guess. (Shovel pole vault?!) Strange it has zero interaction with his ghouls unlike everything else on the kit.

4. Ult is cool but seems really easily shut down by an aoe. And controlling it plus the ghouls plus Yorick could be a real pain in the ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Both fit him fairly well, but I'd argue he needs to be the necro more. It's a much more unique and niche space for him to occupy.


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Lukino

Member

07-01-2013

Are you sure you should change all his damage to physical? Most bruiser type champions have multiple sources of damage. Lee sin, Aatrox, Darius, Renekton, Zed and rengar all have forms of magic damage. Just seems quite odd to have him a true physical damage champion without him becoming a AD caster such as riven or jayce.