Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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Murderoni

Junior Member

07-01-2013

I play a decent amount of Yorick, he was one of my first champs because of his cool theme and look and lore. What I'd like to see from Yorick is that he remains the gravedigger - we could have a classic necromancer with nameless minions as a mid in the future, but it doesn't fit the gravedigger theme. He gets down and dirty with his "minions".

And that's the main point of this post I want to emphasize. They aren't his minions, the ghouls should be his friends. They're his undead buddies and they should have -personality-. Think like Pix does with Lulu. Heimer has turrets and Zyra has plants, and that's all fine as they fit well with those themes, but Yorick feels like his pets should be something a little more.

All that said, I like the first of the first two kits you posted, but I also like this latest one, the only problem being the ghouls feel like just three of the same boring generic ghoul. I liked your ideas with Inky/Stinky/Munch from the first kit, and the whole concept of them being around to make Yorick stronger all the time, but if you go through the trouble of killing them, he will suffer accordingly for it, as they're a much bigger part of his kit than disposable seedplants or ammunition based turrets.

Edit: Clarification on the whole necromancery summoner style vs the bruiser style:

In league we have a few champs who have "pets", let's look that them quickly. Heimer has turrets that serve as zone control and the basis of a (flawed) kit revolving around them. Zyra's plants are temporary but integral to her kit, just in small doses over many points in the game. Lulu has pix, who is literally an extension of herself, he helps everything she does. And Quinn and Valor, like the ultimate suggests, tag team everything with valor marking targets and scouting, and coming down to fight when she ults. We do not have a champion who has "pets" that are both killable/temporary like heimer or zyra, and have the personality of valor or pix. That's what I believe Yorick should be - not crippled when his ghouls are down, but taking them out serves as a much needed source of counterplay that actually weakens him until he can revive his ghoulbuddies.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get this idea out there!


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-01-2013

xelnath
the kit is a nice idea, dont get me wrong, but it isnt yorick anymore. the skills barely interact with his ghouls which is what yorick is all about and the one that does is useless if you happen to have no ghouls alive (pretty big flaw there).

shovel strike is just a bad idea waiting to happen. you use q to try and dive and finish your opponent only to jump over them further putting yourself into harm... It would be fun to watch yorick and his stubby stature do that and i can see some of the strategy of running into the fray to jump over a tank to get to the real targets you want but there are just to many things that could go wrong. having it refresh the speed up though once you make contact is a good idea though.

corpse gas is interesting but it is missing the fun of having a ghoul show up to pester your opponent (i realize thats whats toxic about yorick but there are ways of retaining this feeling and gratification other than removing it altogether) also you keep saying snare for 40% instead of slow, all of the other snares in the game root you in place :P

for his 3rd ability what i said at the beginning pretty much sums it up. its cool that it interacts with the ghouls but if they are not around you are sol and completely down one ability.

the concept of the ult does feel like yorick and sounds like a lot of fun but seems like it would be to easy to use one aoe ability and the whole extra army is gone. if they were to explode on contact or when they die, you might have something.

i know i sound like a broken record and i realize what i came up with for a kit is quite different from where you are going but i really feel it has some great potential, its at the bottom of page 167 right under your post.


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Thrun

Junior Member

07-01-2013

So I really like the direction Yorick is heading towards, but I also have a lot of fear of it. The reason being is that AOE seems like it will be very effective against Yorick. Almost a bit too effective. Yorick opens a portal to hell and sends out 20 minions with 100-250 HP. Directly ontop of Yoricks ult, Anivia drops her ult. Anivias ult then proceeds to completely destroy any and all use of Yoricks ult. Anivias ult being on a six second cool down will then be ready to recast shortly thereafter. A melee champ with a Hydra will tear apart all of Yoricks minions while they are guarding him. Plus the minions guarding him make landing any single target skillshots from most sides near impossible on Yorick.

Now what if we made the ghosts untargetable and just ran off to go do one job and then die. For example Twin Shadows active. Let the ghosts go charge towards the nearest target, and then once there, destroy themselves while accomplishing an effect. For example his E could be a skill shot ghoul that explodes for damage and heals Yorick for a percentage of damage done. Or you could make the ghouls untargetable and like a center point for his abilities. For example, his W could be you create a ghostly sentry that gives off an AOE slow and grants vision for a short period of time. I saw someone mentioned using his ghosts as ghouls that follow him around as resources to be consumed, and keep his cool downs resetting. I like that idea but with a small twist. For example, if he has the ghoul ready, he casts it and the cool down is halved instead of completely removed. That would be prevent damage spikes by sending 3 nuke ghosts at someone at once, and still give him a nice resource to play with.


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Lutzburg

Senior Member

07-01-2013

With the portal to the underworld Ult idea, I think it would be a neat change-up to see Rylai's become a new staple item for Yorick, as the ghouls' attacks would likely be considered a single target spell for the purposes of the slow.


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xKHORNExLORD420

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

There is alot of meaningless jibber-jabber from low skill players QQ'ing in this thread.
Yorik might need a rework but if he gets one mostly he needs REAL power not this false power that he has now. What do I mean? the fellow has 2 options Spam a combo and win a trade or god forbid spam a combo and lose a trade. If the latter happens it is going to keep happening and it's not going to get any better... ever.

sure when he wins he wins (usually because he is facing someone of a sub standard intelligence) but yoriks kit is HUGELY predictable and he is easily defeated by many champions.

The biggest issue I see with Yorik is that people use lolcounter and similar sites when they come up against a lane opponent they are unsure of. As a result of that they are shown the allmighty Yorik as top pick against a good third of the regular top laners you will face and when yorik is a counterpick... brick wall. Honestly I LIKE that he counters who he counters as ahrd as he does because few other champions do that and regardless of how his lane goes it is still balanced out by his need for good teamwork with the ADC.

/sorry for rambling and not checking grammar and possibly incoherence I'm just rambling off some thoughts before bed so I have a chance to get them up to you red fellers fore' ya'll go and do something drastic. Please consider the possibility that all is well and working as intended and that bad players get really upset when they encounter mental hurdles they can't quite leap.


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yoshiwaan

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Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
I feel like this is something of a rhetorical question. There are plenty of strong melee fighters already. Ghouls are what make Yorick unique. Even now, even though he's a pain to lane against, it's the ghouls that make him a pain.

I think having the ghouls be an interactive and identifying part of his kit is much more interesting than glorified 'ghoul like' particle effects.


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IWILLFLOMINATE

Junior Member

07-01-2013

I would really like to see Yorick taken the bruiser route. To me at least, League can have a really great necromancer type character and Yorick isn't that character. Just from looking at him you don't see someone who summons ghosts, you see a character who bashes you with a shovel. When playing Yorick (to me) the best part of his kit is bashing someone in the face and the summoning just feels like necessary but boring gameplay.


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Astaare

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianH1001 View Post
I play a decent amount of Yorick, he was one of my first champs because of his cool theme and look and lore. What I'd like to see from Yorick is that he remains the gravedigger - we could have a classic necromancer with nameless minions as a mid in the future, but it doesn't fit the gravedigger theme. He gets down and dirty with his "minions".

And that's the main point of this post I want to emphasize. They aren't his minions, the ghouls should be his friends. They're his undead buddies and they should have -personality-. Think like Pix does with Lulu. Heimer has turrets and Zyra has plants, and that's all fine as they fit well with those themes, but Yorick feels like his pets should be something a little more. All that said, I like the first of the first two kits you posted, but I also like this latest one, the only problem being the ghouls feel like just three of the same boring generic ghoul. I liked your ideas with Inky/Stinky/Munch from the first kit, and the whole concept of them being around to make Yorick stronger all the time, but if you go through the trouble of killing them, he will suffer accordingly for it, as they're a much bigger part of his kit than disposable seedplants or ammunition based turrets.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get this idea out there!
This. Currently the ghouls feel like an elaborately animated damage over time spell. They should feel like Yorick's allies and a major source of his strength. Giving them personality is a great way to make people want to use them and interact with them more, rather than just ignoring them.


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SixMinutesLate

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

I'm one of the few, the proud, who bought Yorick day 1 despite his rocky release. He's one of my favorite champs, though I rarely play him anymore for a lot of the reasons touched on in the thread. He's got a fantastic early game, but little else, and has almost no skill differentiation in his play style.

Theme-wise, I definitely prefer him as an extremely tanky bruiser. The contrast between his tough melee role and the trope of the frail necromancer behind a horde of minions was one of his biggest hooks for me personally, the other being the horsemen of the apocalypse references in his skills. Yorick is the center of attention in his kit, and the ghouls are hangers-on, haunting him every step of the way as he struggles to rebuild his family's legacy. Though I really do like the idea of a pet summoner/general sort of champ, it's not the kind of champ that I feel Yorick is, nor does it mesh well with his character story and motivations. He doesn't want to fight vicariously through his ghouls. Yorick wants to be immortalized.

Mechanically, I feel like Yorick ought to be on the front lines, and his ghouls should provide him the utility he needs to stay in a fight and make himself a threat. I like the way the ghouls scale off his own stats, and I feel like it promotes decisions from the player: do I build more damage to increase my ghouls' dps, or do I build more tank to keep them up longer? The goal with his skills would be to make these decisions more relevant to actual gameplay, because the stats the ghouls have on live are irrelevant. They don't stick around long enough to make attacking them (and therefore tanking them up) worth it, and their damage scales very linearly and is often inaccessible because of how little they get to attack.

To comment on the newest iteration you posted, Xelnath, I like the passive a lot. The guardian aspect for the ghouls is great and feels on-theme, but I feel like being able to send them out to harass isn't going to pan out very well. Without any commitment from Yorick himself, he can just send endless waves of ghouls at his lane enemy while he sits back and farms. It seems like they'd have to be tuned so low that they'd be negligible, or it'd become the sort of ghoul spam you see from him right now.

His Q seems out of place, I've never been a fan of his speed boost and the skill on its own feels too much like a Volibear charge/Udyr bear stance without the real reason those skills are useful: the CC. I've never felt like Yorick had difficulty getting into fights, he just had trouble contributing to them, and a speed boost is cool but it doesn't really constitute an impact on its own. I really like the W, it feels like the kind of cool interaction between Yorick and his ghouls that his kit wants. The E is okay, it's a better way to gate his in-lane sustain, but it isn't particularly interesting or active on its own. The kit's QWE kind of suffers from being very one-directional. You run at stuff, hit all your buttons, and right click it. There aren't too many decisions to make because most of the skills are AoE, and with CDs like those in the example tooltips he won't be doing much else in fights than unloading his burst, right clicking someone and hoping for the best.

I like the ult ideas being thrown around where Yorick summons a horde of ghosts, but I feel like the missing piece to them is an incentive for Yorick to dive after the ghosts and bury people. It doesn't suit a frontline fighter to be at an advantage by letting his ghouls and ghosts do all the fighting for him, and it potentially exacerbates his weakness to AoE, which is already extremely strong and prevalent in League. Here's an idea of mine, I'd like to hear what people think about it.

Omen of Death (R)
100 Mana
120 Second Cooldown
Yorick slams his shovel into the ground, cracking the earth and releasing the spirits of all who the gravedigger has buried. 3/4/5 invulnerable spirits are summoned each second for 8 seconds, each quickly searching out different nearby enemy champions and attaching to them. Attached spirits have (X health, armor, MR, scaling by rank or potentially off Yorick's own stats) and slow the champion by 5/7/9% each, up to a maximum of 25/35/45%. Yorick's basic attacks against enemies with attached spirits deal 10% bonus damage for each spirit, up to a maximum of 50%.

The idea is that in a teamfight Yorick unleashes his ghost horde, which slow down enemy champions and make them more vulnerable to his own attacks as he charges in and beats down enemy priority targets, or peels other bruisers/tanks from his carries.

Hope some of this helped.


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TechnMage

Senior Member

07-01-2013

My take on a trying to mash together a more summoner based version of yorick who still retains his shovel smashing

Unholy covenant
Yorick Controls the sould of the dead, every ~6/4/2 seconds he summons a soul to join his legion. Every time yorick auto attacks or hits an enemy champion with a spell he uses one of his souls to summon a goul to attack that champion. His gouls deal x% of his base damage and have y% of his max health - possibly having set health/hits to kill(even 1 might work with this build) but immune to spells -.

reasoning - Thematically mostly, i always imagine a huge army when i think necromancer types, having them be summoned on auto attacks really lets this fit, I was thinking a huge army forming if someone chooses to duel you. While in lane Yorick has to make a choice- harass you lowering his dueling potential if you go all in, or don't harass and let the enemy farm but when you fight it is that much more dangerous.

Omen of War - Yorick Strikes down with his shovel and causes the target to attack his nearest ally for x seconds.

reasoning - Type of CC that hasn't been done, fits thematically with the war type theme, originally i wanted it to have scaling damage depending on how much war was happening but that seemed too... hard both to explain and mechanize.

Omen of Pestilence - Yorick infests an enemy with pestilence, after one second it deals x damage over 5 second to all units within ~400 range.

reasoning - Trying to have things fit thematically while having unique mechanics, I think it would give him good area control while leaving good room for counter play in team fights, could be combo'd with war to have someone run into their own team to explode

Omen of Famine - Yorick causes all gouls to go mad with hunger, all gouls charge the enemy dealing x bonus damage(single strike) and gaining x% increased attack speed for x seconds during this time Yorick heals for x% of the damage they deal.

reasoning - people seem to really like sustain, i personally find it very annoying however if it is only usable against enemy champions I feel it is reasonable(what i hate is when the enemy just beats you, or you head back and he goes from nothing to full by the time you return to lane)

Omen of Death - Yorick controls the omens of death, when activated for the next x seconds all his gouls are unkillable and any ally that dies within ~1000 range of him returns as a greater goul which hunts down it's slayer dealing x damage and having x health(unkillable until the ultimate is over)

reasoning - I like the idea of vengance in death, this allows him to have good team fight presence when he might otherwise be unable to enter into combat as his gouls will survive during the period.