Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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iShadowHeart

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is there a way to merge these two concepts better?

I can imagine a world where Yorick's ghouls work like Zed's shadows, performing actions in sync with Yorick when he attacks. That might let us get a mixture of both worlds. Compromising is dangerous though. I feel pretty empathetic to the guys who are like "we have a ton of auto attack bruisers".

Similarly, I feel bad for people like you who have made the best by auto-attacking with Yorick a lot, making the best out of a bad situation.

What path leads to the strongest possible champion concept, with unique character, mechanics and personality?
About having alot of auto attack bruisers...maybe you could take away some power from Yorick (the actual champion) and give it to his ghosts/ghouls?


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M0ng00seGangsta

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I think Yorick should be on equal footing with his ghouls, for the most part. They shouldn't be mere minions. Yorick is also a shade, which implies that you don't really want Yorick to be close by your face(so melee.)

I think it's perfectly acceptable for Yorick to be a powerful melee fighter, if he has all of his ghouls to back him up; counterplay to Yorick should include separating Yorick from his ghouls.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Marks are good, because they force him to run from behind his minion line to "cash in" on his sustain. This is the big reason Yorick is so broken bad right now. Letting him use the Ghoul Dash to harass is fine, but he shouldn't get both harassment and lifesteal out of it, right?

I don't really like marks for sustain on melee champs, and much less on ranged champs.

It is really punishing to berserker-dive type champs, like most melee carries, quite a few bruisers (for example, xin, olaf, j4..), and other champs that feel like they can't contest the lane through attrition, so they have to all in you.

Its anti-all in. Thats fine, as long as he isn't stronger than average elsewhere. Its just a huge power sink.


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Whippal

Junior Member

07-01-2013

Why cant we just have both a strong melee fighter with his abilities involving ghouls who beats his opponents into the ground while his ghouls do the dirty work. While they also introduce another champ into league who is this necromancer. Make him/her maybe an ap mid her ghouls are dead minions or something similar to yoricks old ghouls. Seems easy to tie their lore together. Plus i am sure other members from the design team have seen people talking about a new necro champ and are itching to try it out.


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Storm Frog

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
I would say that League needs a minion commander more than another fighter but that conflicts heavily with Yorick's established identity.

Yorick is a beefy guy who likes to hit things with a shovel. His visuals convey a bruiser who wants to limp into melee range and start laying into things. Making him a commander of sorts that relies on minions for damage or protection is just an ill fit.

If Yorick had to focus on more ghoul commands in order to get into range in the first place that would read better. A hunchbacked and limping gravedigger has never seemed like the kind of champion to have a movement speed steroid. That sort of archetype feels like it should be slow and rely on ranged CC to gap close but then be very sticky once in melee range.

The typical nercomancer or minion commander trope is someone who relies on underlings to compensate for physical shortcomings, usually frailty. Yorick's model and animations do convey physical impairment, but to his mobility not his strength.


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Apocagenocitis

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0ng00seGangsta View Post
I think Yorick should be on equal footing with his ghouls, for the most part. They shouldn't be mere minions. Yorick is also a shade, which implies that you don't really want Yorick to be close by your face(so melee.)

I think it's perfectly acceptable for Yorick to be a powerful melee fighter, if he has all of his ghouls to back him up; counterplay to Yorick should include separating Yorick from his ghouls.
Or killing his ghouls. Personally I think lowering the damage on his spells and putting it into his minions HP, damage, and Time they last would be superior than a pointless rework.


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KirbyHero

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

Switching the ghouls to health cost (paid on their death?..) would be an interesting mixup I think. It would lead to a lot more counterplay, having skills that are particularly good at killing minions could help you counter.


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Godunderscor

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Yorick's getting looked at? Xelnath is looking at potential kits for ideas? Today's a good day.

Here's my version of a fix, but first, what's to be fixed?

1. Ghouls feel meaningless. They're utterly spammable. They have gobs of health, low cooldowns, have no bounty, and any Yorick worth his salt will build mana to ensure their reign - so overall, they feel awful to fight for enemies. Your options are to either suck it up and let them hit you, try and run, or try to kill them; unfortunately, these are all terrible options.
You let them hit you, you get hit; you run, you're interrupted from doing your own plays; you move to kill them, they're back in a few moments and you open yourself to damage elsewhere.

2. Yorick is deceptively powerful. He has huge damage potential and is nigh-impossibly hard to kill assuming his best case which is: he's next to you with all his ghouls and ultimate cast. My major issue is his triple-dip of tank stats with consistent health gain(Famine), damage reduction(innate) and excellent base stats while also having the flip-side of good damage.



So, a Yorick concept. Flavor text in quotes. Numbers presented as examples...

i - No Rest - Yorick's countless years in contact with death have bolstered his defense against it.
Yorick has 25% bonus Armor and Magic Resistance.

Q - War - 7 second cooldown after expending the attack. Reduced by 1 second on Autoattack(Yorick only.)
Yorick prepares to slam his opponent, resetting his basic attack timer and dealing 30/50/70/90/110 extra damage on his next basic attack in 5 seconds.
Ghoul - Yorick's ghoul besets the enemy struck, dealing normal damage +15/25/35/45/55.

W - Pestilence - 18/17/16/15/14 second cooldown.
Yorick is surrounded by a swarm of vile pests for the next 6 seconds. The swarm slows nearby enemies by 30% and debuffs enemies who have been inside for at least 2 seconds with Grievous wounds.
Ghoul - Yorick's ghoul explodes at target location surrounded by the pest swarm and attacks the closest Champion or other target.

E - Famine - 15 second cooldown
Yorick's autoattacks deal 5% of his target's maximum health in magic damage for the next 4/5/6/7/8 seconds. Yorick is healed for the mitigated amount.
Ghoul - Yorick targets an enemy champion. That champion is beset by Yorick's ghoul. Both Yorick and the Ghoul's autoattacks are both modified by Famine.

R - Wicked One - Yorick's constant connection with the beyond allows him to summon shades of the dead.
(Yorick has this ability at level 1; otherwise, its rank progression is the same as other ultimates with ranks available at levels 6/11/16.)
Every 30 seconds Yorick gains the companionship of a spectral ghoul. The ghoul lingers, waiting to modify Yorick's next spell. Modified spell effects are listed under the normal spell. Basic Ghoul statistics are as follows:

Health: 3/4/5/6. Basic attacks and damaging abilities deal 1 damage. DoT and AoE deal 1/3 damage.
Ghouls ignore damage from minions. Ghouls lose 1 health every 3 seconds.
Movement: 400
Damage: 50% Yorick's Total Attack Damage
Attack Speed: 1 attack per second




The concept is similar to Karma. You have your ultimate from level one and activating it allows you an enhanced effect for one of your basic spells. Contrast to Karma, Yorick has no way outside of the Cooldown Reduction to lower this cooldown, the enhanced effect presents a long-lasting minion to continually harry enemies, Yorick has inherently different methods for winning being melee-based, Yorick can make only a single decision and so is more committed to what he chooses.

The role I would expect Yorick to fill given these abilities is one of a tank or bruiser, similar to how he is now. To replace his old ultimate, his ghoul is much stronger and lasts longer. Additionally, the Aura from Pestilence depowers AD carries by cutting their lifesteal - all in theme with the Apocalypse Horsemen concept! Last, his passive gives him improved resists, but all the time.

Fixing those problems from earlier: Yorick would now have a reliable and telegraphed power boost in his Ultimate; Yorick's ghouls are now a singular Ghoul which has nicely delineated health and consistent stats throughout the game.


What I'm shooting for is a more simple Yorick meant for the "Strong Melee Fighter Yorick who mostly ignores ghouls."

Extra Note: Obviously, the original kit's ghouls were themed after the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Now, in my interpretation, Famine, Pestilence, and War are subservient to Death. Yorick is a sort of gatekeeper for Death, thus, I think it makes sense for Yorick to embody these three prime causes of Death and to be its personification than to have an Omen for Death.

I've now, officially spent way too much time on this. I hope Yorick turns out well.


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tuxedobob

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander
Yes.


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exe3

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Necromancer given we don't have one. If you want to ignore the ghouls then I ask why not delete them? Why are they even here when you could essentially delete the ghouls that spawn from Q and E and his gameplay is basically unchanged. I think that if you could delete parts of a champs kit and the playstyle doesn't even change then that points to a big problem that should be dealt with regardless of whether some people are happy with it. In this case Yorick's essentially taking up real estate that a real necromancer champion could be using (the same reasoning for why you're taking out the electricity from Xerath because that was holding you back from making a real electricity mage).

Having said that I don't think you need to go full mage Necromancer, I think it's completely possible to keep Yorick being a bruisery champion while still giving more control and meaning to his ghouls (you did say you want to keep him top rather than mid afterall). In fact that's what i'd prefer.