Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I really wish someone would write a Riot Dictionary. I'm not sure which term to use.

Visual Upgrade - Focused on bringing the character up to modern day lol standards
Tweak - Minor changes to the character to improve game health.
Rework - Mechanical changes to the character to add strength and vulnerabilities.
Relaunch - A reboot of the character both visually and mechanically to create a cohesive fit in league of legends. (I consider Sejuani a relaunch)

A full rework means that the core philosophies of the character are out of line. In Yorick's case, his meaningless ghouls, choice of abilities and their interactions and his role in the game.

I strongly suspect the right places for a character like this are Top and/or Jungle. Support Yorick exists only because of his free, frustrating harassment.
lets be honest though, I bet the first person to try Yorick as support looked at his ultimate and went, "ha! that kind of thing is only useful on a support. Hey, wait that might not be a bad idea". Also the fact that to function Yorick only really needs a tear, everything else is extra and only necessary in the arms race that is top lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lypíphera

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's why live plants are utterly terrible:

1) They are attackable, but only live for a moderate time.
2) This means they are killable and can consume resources
3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some plants out.
5) When you do kill them, they grant pitiful amount of gold

To look at our other summoner character, Yorick:

1) His whole kit is about summoning
2) He still does damage even without ghouls.
3) His ghouls create specific areas to avoid
4) His ghouls can be killed, dramatically reducing their damage output
4) You are compensated with remaining hit points for destroying them
You can easily swap the original statements around (as I did). Both kits involve summoning, but neither are exclusively reliant on the summoned unit for damage. The summoned unit, ghoul or plant, provide secondary damage. In the case of Yorick, all of his spells will produce the unit, while Zyra will only if there is a seed already on the ground, he still gets the upfront damage. Given the CDR Zyra obtains passively, she can almost maintain a plant permanently, with a little more she can, similar to Yorick. The amount of gold for killing a plant is only 5 more gold than a ghoul, which is not very much (killing 7 nets you a pot). It takes 3 auto attacks to kill a plant, and after 3 attacks on a ghoul it should be dead as well (unless you have high AS). If you constantly avoid plants like you suggest ghouls, you will be pushed back for much of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I think on this point, we differ strongly. I do not feel like Yorick's mechanics are good at all. Q - an attack reset + move speed buff)
* This ability is only good if you can already close to reach the target. Compare with Garen Q which allows you to close to the target to enable the rest of his kit.

W - instant AoE snare + minion summon
* This ability isn't bad except for the fact that it is unavoidable harass

E - instant DD + lifesteal nuke
* This ability has zero counterplay and is the reason Yorick is so incredibly frustrating to play against. Worse, the ghoul only makes the experience worse if the enemy wants to fight you head-to-head.

R - Clone ally, revive them if the ally dies
* The optimal use case for this spell is throwing it on an enemy who will live long enough for you to take advantage of the double AD. Then just as the duration is about to wear off, that ally dies and comes back again.

This is a double level of frustration - the scenarios to get the best out of it are narrow. The cases where you use it on yourself, it feels like a very bad Tryndamere ultimate.

Passive - +% dmg and %damage reduction
* This is the worst thing on his kit. It says "if you close on yorick, he's harder to kill than if you harass him"
* This means that players "intuit" how hard he will be to kill by poking, then all-in Yorick and see that Yorick is suddenly 15% more damaging and 15% harder to kill. This leads to constant frustration.
Q - While Garen does provide the speed boost up front, Yorick does have an AOE slow at his disposal to aid him in getting in range of the AA. Also, since Yorick's comes back up 60% faster he can use it on a minion near him to start closing the cap. Assuming a perfect scenario, with 0 CDR Yorick can have a 100% uptime on the speed boost, while Garen has only ~57% uptime. The best Garen can achieve is ~94% at 40% CDR. And the rest of Yorick's kit is ranged already, if they are that far out that Yorick can't reach them for 550 range, Garen won't reach them for melee range.

W - Anivia, Cassiopeia, Lissandra, and Miss Fortune all have instant AoE snares. Less instant, but still quite fast ranged AOE snares include Ziggs, Lux, Leona, Orianna, and Galio.

E - At level 1, the direct damage heals for 22 + 0.4 bonus AD, which is quite low. Now, factor in base resists and no pen, those values drop by 23%. Due to the nature of Yorick, he primarily scales off AD, while his two ranged harras abilities deal magic damage.
Compare this to Fiddle, healing for 36 + 0.27 AP per second, scaling off AP and MPen. Both have zero counterplay. Sure, interrupting Fiddle prevents even further healing, but his base damage is always higher and his healing percentage starts 50% higher and doubles by the time he reaches max rank, ultimately giving him better bonus ratios. Allowing more than a second of draining and that damage and healing doubles, triples, etc. Vlad heals for 15 + .25AP, no counterplay there either. Warwick heals for 60 + or 8% of the target's maximum health (higher value) +1AP, again with zero counterplay. As for either healing or instant damage nukes, there are plenty of those that offer zero counterplay.

R - I'd say the optimal use case for this spell is throwing it on an ally that can rip the enemy a new one so that the AD survives the battle. But hey, if you want your ally to die instead, thats up to you
What frustrates me is that Morde gets a lot of up front damage, a DOT, and if he gets the kill a ghost that lasts 3 times as long as my ghoul! Perhaps upping the values to 15s :P
It is also like a tease from Zilean: Hey look, you are alive again... April Fools!
Perhaps having narrow opportunities to optimally use your ultimate is what aids in his balance. It also offers counterplay. Do you blow up the easier to kill ghoul or go after the bigger source of damage. While it may feel like a bad Trynn ulti on yourself, if it allows you to tank and peel the enemy, it has done its job.

Passive - To be fair, since he is melee, the only time he will be hitting you is when you all in him. His auto attacks are the only thing that gain from the damage increase. His abilities/ghouls won't hit any harder. As for the damage reduction, Yorick will often have a ghoul out if you try to trade pokes, leading to him often having some damage reduction, so it won't be a complete surprise. You also have to have the mana and have the abilities available. This leads to counterplay, if Pestilence is on CD then that is 5% less damage he will do and 5% less reduction he has. This also relies on the ghouls being alive, in a teamfight with multiple AOEs going off it is highly unlikely you will have 15/20% for very long. You can also compare this to Wukong which gains 4/6/8% effective health (through resists) per enemy champion within 1400 range, and unlike Yorick's it is not CD or mana reliant. Garen's Courage provides a 30% reduction in damage and CC. A total of 9.65% of champions can reduce damage received, such as Alistar (which also increases damage delt), Gragas, Kass, Kat, etc.

TLDR: You are in the wrong thread my friend


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptomine View Post
1. Everything Lux does can be dodged.

2. All of Lux's spells have more significant cooldowns, leaving her vulnerable.

3. Lux is very fragile and dies quickly if you get to her.

Yorick has none of these.
Agreed, however.
1 Yorick can't kill you in three seconds flat

2. Yorick doesn't have a global.

3. Yorick has no cc beyond a slow.

Also lux's shield stacking makes her a lot less fragile than you'd think, combined with the fact that she usually has resists in the form of a chalice and has both a snare and perma slow. You can't say someone is easy to kill if it's the most common champion to mejai's rush in the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

blindasleep

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Great, then let's find a way to making playing Yorick *and* playing against Yorick fun.
I really just don't think you all know what your doing anymore.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheOldOneTwo

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I've thrown together two "kit" ideas based on the concepts posed earlier for discussion of the ideas behind them. Keep in mind, these are only tooltips... and tooltips are much easier to write than abilities are to build.

Which of these better fits the kind of character Yorick should be? Please explain why you like or hate it.

Good Talking Points:
* Counterplay - which one provides the better experience?
* Creativity - which one lets the player feel like a pro?
* Cohesiveness - which ones feels like it works well together?

Kit 1)

Ghouls buff Yorick. Yorick can give these buffs to an Ally.

Attachment 719924 Attachment 719925 Attachment 719927Attachment 719928Attachment 719929

Kit 2)

Ghouls interplay with each other. Yorick's ultimate is a powerful army command tool.

Attachment 719930 Attachment 719931
(Q - Ranged Nuke)
Attachment 719932Attachment 719933
(E - Skillshot)
Attachment 719934
Kit One is interesting. It resembles the Yorick Now with smaller changes and a slower pace of action due to the 30 seconds.
My only problem with "each ghoul" out I'm assuming you can get all 3 ghouls out but my problem is that AOE spells can completely knock them out rendering Yorick less than satisfactory as a champion most team fights. Yes the ultimate fixes that but then you rely on your ultimate too much, otherwise any smart player will destroy the more important ghouls and leave the speed ghoul out because that one helps the least.

The second Kit I don't like as much as the first one because of the ultimate. May sound COOL on paper, but it's a channel and a channel on yorick seems strange to me. I don't think he should be channeling, Or controlling an entire army of ghosts. He is supposed to have 3 best friend ghosts whom he fights WITH, not commands.

I honestly think his ghouls should be out at all times with him, but they can be "stunned" when killed for a short period of time. And his passive should be based around powering up the ghouls slowly, and his ultimate amplifies this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Commando Slap

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I'm generally a fan of multiple roles. I question if Yorick players love the idea that they are a new form of Thresh though if I focused on making him work in that role. Hide in the bush, jump out and scare the enemy, harass down, hard to kill, etc.

Xelnath, why not take his creeps to operate in sort of a Pikmin format? Lasthitting collects corpses for summoning ghouls, and use something not unlike the PAC minigame to determine which you summon. This ghoul stays with you, is killable, but you have specific spells which command it to do your bidding.

I just really worry that his ghouls won't be a focal point. I feel like the crux of what could make Yorick stand out amongst the bruisers is a strong pet component. A lot of ideas hinge on him staying as just a beefy tank-- but I feel that's missing out on a LOT of potential space for fun pet/undead mechanics.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Darkearth10

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Yorick Players:
What is the fantasy of playing Yorick?
- To be a badass necromancer that would rely on his summons to kick ass. (Didn't actually happen)
What are the high moments of Yorick?
-Complete domination.
What do you dislike most about playing Yorick?
-Very boring to play. Little use of ghouls other than quick initial burst.

Yorick Opponents:
What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
-Boring to fight, tanky sustain fight.
How do you win a game against Yorick?
-Not to hard, counter him by doing what he does except better. -Cho/WW
What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
-Unless playing someone weak against him, lane is fairly easy as he doesn't dish out much damage.
How does Yorick lose a game?
-Get countered, play smart against him, gank him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MandyMemory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I'm generally a fan of multiple roles. I question if Yorick players love the idea that they are a new form of Thresh though if I focused on making him work in that role. Hide in the bush, jump out and scare the enemy, harass down, hard to kill, etc.
I don't think he has to lane with the ADC to be useful as a support. Right now we have Morg, Janna(mid), Lux, and Nunu as support characters that start in other lanes or the jungle, but late game transition into more of a support role. Having those types of characters available if every lane does add more options into team comps, but only if they're viable. Currently, Yorick is trying to fill that position, but he's doing it poorly. I think he should still have a support spell, but not on his ult. That seems like it's giving up too much on a bruiser.

I think if one or more of his normal skills had an ally cast option it would help him fill the role he seems to be going toward currently.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xelnath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Systems Designer

06-30-2013
38 of 123 Riot Posts

Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.

Basic idea: Yorick is a close-range, melee bruiser. He can use his ghouls to gain ranged damage and harass, but only by putting them at risk.

I also mocked up what it would look like when 3 ghouls were protecting Yorick defensively.

Attachment 720849\

Edit: Updated to be all physical damage, as suggested.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

tuxedobob

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I'm going to start with the caveat that I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've played Yorick. I did really well my first game, but lost really badly the games after that, and I wasn't really sure why, so I gave up on him.

That said, my favorite theme for him is that of the necromancer. I have to wonder if it's possible for Yorick to borrow a little bit of WoW's Death Knight and a little bit of Diablo 2's necromancer.

But to begin with, I think it's important that Yorick's ghouls are actively summoned. Having them just randomly show up just seems uninteresting.

Here's my take:


Passive: Unholy Covenant: Yorick's Ghouls have 20% of his Health, Attack Damage, Ability Power, Armor, and Magic Resist. Yorick's Ghouls will assist him in attacking his target.

Omen of War: Yorick summons an Omen of War. Omens of War have 50% extra health and armor. Each Omen of War active increases Yorick's maximum health by 3%. Yorick can have 1/2/3/4/5 Omens active at once.

Omen of Pestilence: Yorick summons an Omen of Pestilence. Omens of Pestilence deal ranged magic damage based on Ability Power that slows the target for 4% per ghoul. Yorick can have 1/2/3/4/5 Omens active at once.

Omen of Famine: Yorick summons an Omen of Famine. Omens of Famine have 50% extra Attack Damage and 3% Life Steal. Yorick can have 1/2/3/4/5 Omens active at once.

Death Pact: Yorick sacrifices all active ghouls to empower himself. He gains Attack Damage equal to the sacrificed ghouls' Attack Damage and Ability Power and health equal to the sacrificed ghouls' current health. He also gains double the bonus health, slowing effect, and Life Steal normally granted by his ghouls for 20 seconds. Additional ghouls cannot be summoned while Death Pact is active.


So, there's the basic idea. My numbers are probably a little off. Summon ghouls (at higher ranks, LOTS of them) but be able to sacrifice them for a short-term gain. There's a build-up (not quite as long as Cho'gath stacks?), the ability to "cash in" on it, and then you need time to recover back to where you were. Fifteen ghouls is probably too many. Maybe go with 6 or 9. Maybe the last rank in each skill gives a bonus ghoul, and ranking the skill increases the effect, instead.

I'm not sure there's anything in League that works quite like Death Pact. I feel like Yorick should be a small army, but it's an army at his disposal, one that's quite disposable.