Let's talk about Yorick

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Lutzburg

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
There's some good ideas here. Major takeaways are as follows:

1) Ghouls are only a resource. They are just spell effects here. This can work, but it feels like a lost opportunity for a counterplay unit.
2) Your general ability choices were pretty good. I liked the core ideas. (Ghouls are basically a visible cooldown reset)
3) Your omens are overdesigned, with too many different stances. Aatrox has two stances and he's still pretty hard to use, when that's most of what you have to do with him. 4 stances is excessive. What you do in those stances is pretty good though. (Speed up/slow down/bonus damage, etc) However, one is likely to be dominant and the rest ignored.
4) The ultimate is a better version of R#2 for a fighter. Props there!

Overall, you have some good logic, solid writing skills, a nice mixture of interesting abilities and a clear direction. You should keep doing stuff like this. I can see you turning this into a career in the future.
Thanks so much for responding, I'm really glad you liked it! Believe it or not, I actually have quite a few champion concepts written up using a format like the one I used here, though I've yet to show any of them off. I'm actually a game designer by trade and applied to Riot once in the past.

I agree with you that the Omens are overdesigned. I think my desire to encompass the entire Four Horsemen theme clouded the mechanics a bit. Here's a more streamlined rework of the ability:

W- Omens of the Apocalypse (5 sec): Yorick harnesses the Omens of the Apocalypse, which grant him passive effects and stats. Whenever a ghoul is summoned by Unholy Covenant, it inherits Yorick's active Omen and applies those effects when used in combat. Recasting this ability toggles Yorick between the two Omens. Visually, Yorick's shovel changes colors and spell effects to denote his current Omen.

Omen of War and Conquest: Yorick Passive: Yorick's Attack Damage is increased by 15/25/35/45/60 and his movement speed is increased by 15/18/22/26/30.
Ghoul Ability: Yorick's next ability using a War and Conquest Ghoul has its damage increased by 15%.

Omen of Famine and Pestilence: Yorick Passive: Yorick is healed for 10/15/20/25/30 every time he kills an enemy unit. Effect is a doubled against large monsters and champions.
Ghoul Ability: Yorick's next ability using a Famine and Pestilence Ghoul causes the target to become slowed by 30% for 2 seconds.

Design Philosophy: By combining the four Omens into two 'stances,' Yorick can essentially cater his ghouls to help him function as either an aggressive lane bully or a sustained lane presence with team fight/gank utility. Condensing the stances from 4 to 2 alleviates clunky and complicated inputs that could have led to usability issues.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
33 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab my Lemons View Post
I know I've posted in this thread earlier, but I just wanted to add; what archetype needs to be filled? What character role is lacking from the game, thematically or mechanically? When you add Yorick to the equation, you're narrowing it down to a couple things - a summoning character, a death magic user, a spell casting bruiser. And of course, you want the character in question to be unique. The proposed kits turn Yorick into all of these things, keeping up with all the themes that are theoretically missing from the game. In my opinion, Xelnath and the other Riot staff are close to achieving this, while alleviating potential problems - deviating too far from the original character, dealing with the aforementioned issues that summonable ghouls come with, etc.
I agree, it sounds like we need a statement of Goals in terms of reworking Yorick. Now that I've gotten an initial flood of ideas from you guys, I'm going to bounce the overall themes (Bruiser Yorick, Support Buff Yorick, Necromancer Yorick, War Commander Yorick) with my colleagues and see which role we think is most appropriate for the character.

Once we firmly establish what kind of character role we want Yorick to fill, we can try to build a kit from the ideas and feedback you guys have given here. It will also help narrow this discussion down in a way that we can focus this conversation.


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Whisla

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Okay, great! This helps me understand the high moments specific to Yorick better than any other post so far. To summarize:

1) Ambushing with ghouls + ult is fun
2) Cutting through the enemy team via smart use of spells to reach the ADC
3) Revenge killing someone
4) Defending tower against the odds
5) Protecting your ADC with slows and ghouls.
The man summed it up pretty well.
My personal favorite is being that tank that forces an enemy to focus him or pay the full price of dmg after a team fight is over. (Think a Built WW that cant be killed w/o some sort of healing reduction or 2+ people onhim with slows and stuns)


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magik8ball

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I agree, it sounds like we need a statement of Goals in terms of reworking Yorick. Now that I've gotten an initial flood of ideas from you guys, I'm going to bounce the overall themes (Bruiser Yorick, Support Buff Yorick, Necromancer Yorick, War Commander Yorick) with my colleagues and see which role we think is most appropriate for the character.

Once we firmly establish what kind of character role we want Yorick to fill, we can try to build a kit from the ideas and feedback you guys have given here. It will also help narrow this discussion down in a way that we can focus this conversation.
Don't forget the shovel-smacking! It's one of the most satisfying parts of Yorick smashing people with my shovel, and if I have to be a necromancer I won't get that chance very often.


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Killrazor

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I agree, it sounds like we need a statement of Goals in terms of reworking Yorick. Now that I've gotten an initial flood of ideas from you guys, I'm going to bounce the overall themes (Bruiser Yorick, Support Buff Yorick, Necromancer Yorick, War Commander Yorick) with my colleagues and see which role we think is most appropriate for the character.

Once we firmly establish what kind of character role we want Yorick to fill, we can try to build a kit from the ideas and feedback you guys have given here. It will also help narrow this discussion down in a way that we can focus this conversation.
It is no question what his role should be he. He is necromancer, they are a tank/support class via summons, curses etc. They will not deal the most damage, they will be tanky, they will have summons and spells/curses that assist both him, his summons, and his team. Making him anything else would just feel wrong.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
34 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisla View Post
If he feels like to much of a brick wall, well hate to say it but tanks rule when built. Yorick probably doesnt need a full on rework, just some touch ups.
I respect your right to disagree, but based on the feedback here, I believe Yorick is more prime for a full kit rework than possibly any other champion in the game. This is why its so important to deeply understand the exciting moments on Yorick, so we can find healthy ways to keep the awesome experiences in the game.

That said, its important his underlying philosophy doesn't change:

Yorick is a guy who should fight you.
Yorick's ghouls help him fight you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
Don't forget the shovel-smacking! It's one of the most satisfying parts of Yorick smashing people with my shovel, and if I have to be a necromancer I won't get that chance very often.
I *do* love a good shovel smacking. It's my favorite sound on his kit.


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Lutzburg

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson62 View Post
just out of curiosity instead of making ghouls resources, what if he could only get ghouls from last hitting minions with something like a nasus Q? So he strikes them, then can unbury them
I like this idea and had thought about ways to incorporate a 'soul harvesting' mechanic similar to Thresh, but didn't follow through on it for two reasons. One, that crowds out Thresh's theme, and two, ghouls are such an integral part of Yorick's kit that having circumstances arise where he could quite literally be starved of ghouls (his resources) would lead to very frustrating experiences. That would be akin to an energy champ that absolutely had to auto attack to generate energy (though not quite as extreme).


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Whisla

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I guess one thing to more define Xel* is what really defines a rework? To me eve was a rework but Kat was more touch ups. What is your defenition of a full on rework?


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
35 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutzburg View Post
I like this idea and had thought about ways to incorporate a 'soul harvesting' mechanic similar to Thresh, but didn't follow through on it for two reasons. One, that crowds out Thresh's theme, and two, ghouls are such an integral part of Yorick's kit that having circumstances arise where he could quite literally be starved of ghouls (his resources) would lead to very frustrating experiences. That would be akin to an energy champ that absolutely had to auto attack to generate energy (though not quite as extreme).
Yep. This is also why I didn't investigate a last hitting mechanic. It would shut Yorick down very hard.

When designing champs, you want to have two playstyles:

1) What do I want to do?
2) What do I do when I'm behind and need to cut my losses?

e.g. Xin Zhao wants to dive you. If he can't dive you, he maxes his W and focuses on last hitting through your harass.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I have a kit theme id like to throw out here again in hopes of getting some feedback on it

Passive
i would have 3 kind of tiny ghouls that follow yorick around all the time that wouldn't help you fight when they were smaller and would not be targetable, one green one red and one white/blue. while they are tiny they would buff yorick with lesser benefits of what they might do when activated.

white/blue: your attacks deal bonus damage

green: your attacks slow your opponent by 10% for 3 seconds

red: you have 10% lifesteal

whenever you would cast one of your spells the ghoul of the respective color would grow and start helping you fight. however once you cast a ghoul you lose the passive benefits it would give you. the ghouls would have a stronger effect than the passives they grant.

white/blue: you summon a ghoul that attacks by your side. the ghoul gets attack damage and health equal to 50% of your own and fights by your side for 3 seconds. while active it boosts you and its own movement speed. attacks made by this ghoul reduce its targets armor and magic resist by 5% for 3 seconds, stacks up to 3 times (this ghoul would stay next to you and attack whatever target you attack at the same time as you)

green: a ghoul appears at target location with health equal to 35% of your own dealing damage per second and slowing enemies around it for 5 seconds.(you will be able to direct where it goes once it appears but it is relatively slow moving. it doesnt actually physically attack but is more of a walking poison gas cloud)

red: a ghoul appears behind target opponent latching onto them. it deals initial damage plus a bonus 25% of your attack damage each second over 4 seconds. you gain health equal to 50% of the bonus damage dealt. (this one would not be controllable as it latches onto an enemy champion giving a more consistent source of damage)

once the ghouls die the skills go on cooldown and a new little ghoul returns once each skill comes off cooldown. since the tiny ghouls would not be around you would not gain their passive buffs until they returned. I would probably make yoricks spells cost more if this sort of concept was incorporated, making you have to choose between the passive buffs and their active effects.

the ghouls would also have their health stay static and not decay over time. players facing yorick will have to choose between killing his ghouls or facing him head on. champs with area of effect abilities would have an easier time with yorick as they have the potential of killing the ghouls while focusing yorick for the most part. This rendition of his kit also maintains many of the aspects players like about yorick currently while providing a better lane experience and a stronger late game contribution to his team. the key to making the ghouls a major contributing factor to his kit will be figuring out how much health they will get and what kind of armor and resistances they gain, whether they have their own health and defense pools like tibbers or if they would scale off of yoricks stats.