A new view on tanks

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308Cowboy

Member

11-22-2010

A tank is not a specific champ. A tank is a role on a team. This person is responsible for starting fights, crowd control, and absorbing as much damage and cc as possible from the other team. Many characters are better than others at this. Amumu is largely regarded as the best tank, simply because he has a team stun, a skill shot pull to initiate (which is better than blitz, because he goes to the fight, hence starting the team fight, where as blitz only gets one opponent) and massive aoe, helping in the fight immensely. Other tanks include Shen (team taunt, ally shield, team life tap) Sion (stun, team AS buff, heal allies based on damage output, massive health) and Rammus (long duration taunt on single target, very high armor/MR, stun, massive aoe damage).

However, other characters function well in this spot. Tryndamere can tank for the duration of a team fight very well. He can't die for the duration of Endless Rage, and he has a spin to initiate, gains damage based on how much damage he takes, and has a slow. Of course, cleanse is necessary then, since 1 exhaust and he's done doing damage. Kayle is good at making anyone the tank for a few seconds.

But the best tank for a well organized team is none other than the OP spell caster we all know and love: R to win Karthus. Reason, he has his gate for CC. He has massive aoe damage. He has a low cd aoe nuke, and the ultimate aoe with is ult, which literally covers the whole map. Now, he is squishy. He's squishy as hell.

Who cares?

Let me run you through a team fight with Karth as tank. Karth turns on his aoe. He charges in, with team close behind, but not too close. Everyone opens up on Karth. He's stunned, nuked, and pummeled instantly. He dies. He spends the remainder of the team fight casting anyways. With luck, you just got their whole team to unload all their ults and nukes on someone who dies, but still keeps fighting. Literally. So now your team is free to fight in your Karth's buring aoe, with a gate and ult at the end to make sure nobody gets away.

Karth is a tank, late game anyways. He is one of the best tanks, giving his life for an ace.


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GoldCardJester

Senior Member

11-22-2010

My brother and I have a lot of thoughts on this issue. The concept of a "TANK" doesn't really translate well into LoL from other games. People are so misled by the idea of a well balanced team in an MMO, that they try to bring it into every game.

In an MMO, a tank ALWAYS has a taunt ability to pull hate onto them so that casters aren't hurt. In LoL and similar games, a tank seems to just be defined as a character with a disable and good health.

In an MMO:
-Team battle starts. Tank uses taunt, pulls hate. Casters and dps bombard enemy while tank takes all the damage.

In LoL:
-Team battle starts. Enemy team identifies biggest threat and focuses them, usually not throwing anything at the 3k hp juggernaut running in their face. Target typically dies. "Tank" might land a kill.

To me, the game only has two TRUE tanks: Shen and Rammus. Other than them, there are large characters that act as intimidation against the enemy. A TANK'S job is to protect the weaker members of the team, but without a taunt, there is only the feigning thought of what the big guy in the front line is supposed to be doing.

That's just my opinion.


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Blue Shyvana

Senior Member

11-22-2010

After he's dead, he's just damage. He doesn't really have a disable. So pretty much he's just gonna initiate and take minor cc. No Galio or Amumu is going to ult a lone Karthus.

I see what you're saying about the initiate, but I wouldn't consider him a tank, since he stops sponge-ing damage/cc after he dies.


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Krazikarl

Senior Member

11-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 308Cowboy View Post
Let me run you through a team fight with Karth as tank. Karth turns on his aoe. He charges in, with team close behind, but not too close. Everyone opens up on Karth. He's stunned, nuked, and pummeled instantly. He dies. He spends the remainder of the team fight casting anyways. With luck, you just got their whole team to unload all their ults and nukes on someone who dies, but still keeps fighting. Literally. So now your team is free to fight in your Karth's buring aoe, with a gate and ult at the end to make sure nobody gets away.

Karth is a tank, late game anyways. He is one of the best tanks, giving his life for an ace.
No. Let me run through the scenario where you are fighting a team of non morons above 900 or so ELO.

Karthus turns on his AOE and charges in. The other team isnt a bunch of morons and doesnt blow their CC on a guy who can keep casting after he dies anyway. Instead, they rape the **** out of the opposing team's carries. Karthus kindly asks them to stop that, but they dont listen (mostly because Karthus has bad CC and no taunts). Maybe he can even slow down a few of them so that the carry rape takes a half second longer.

Now your carries are dead and Karthus, late game, certainly doesnt have enough damage to hurt the other team enough. They clean up Karthus at their leisure. Then your team mocks you for trying to tank with Karthus and probably rage quits.

Tryn is a bit better I guess. But while he can initiate OK, you now have a choice. If you build him normally (to carry), they other team will just focus him and rape the **** out of him. After he pops Endless Rage, he gets ignored, until somebody pops an ignite on him after a few seconds for the free kill. If you build him tanky...well, I suppose you can initiate and live just fine. But you do bad damage (Tryn needs TONS of items to do much damage), and the other team is just going to ignore you. Best case scenario is that you can slow one of them.

So if you go the second way, why dont you just get a real tank that can initiate just as well AND has much more CC to control the fight? Shen initiate just as well, can take as much more or more damage, will do just as much damage as a tanky Tryn, but he also has personal protection for your carry and and AoE taunt. So just take Shen and stop overthinking it.

Sion sucks for a similar reason. He cant initiate well. His stun is good CC, but its just single target. Just take the Shen who initiate better, CCs better, and can take just as much damage. Build your Sion AP where you will have just as much CC anyway.

The point is that building to take damage is not tanking. So while anybody can build tanky, few champs can actually tank well. Most champs simply cannot fulfill the role of a tank, because they can't simultaneously initiate well, take damage well, AND control a fight against non morons.


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NailTheBastard

Senior Member

11-22-2010

LoL tanks are soley based on the items you buy in-game. If I buy "tank" items, I'm building my champ into a tank.


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Krazikarl

Senior Member

11-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester3609 View Post

In LoL:
-Team battle starts. Enemy team identifies biggest threat and focuses them, usually not throwing anything at the 3k hp juggernaut running in their face. Target typically dies. "Tank" might land a kill.

To me, the game only has two TRUE tanks: Shen and Rammus. Other than them, there are large characters that act as intimidation against the enemy. A TANK'S job is to protect the weaker members of the team, but without a taunt, there is only the feigning thought of what the big guy in the front line is supposed to be doing.

That's just my opinion.
Nah, there are a few more tanks. Amumu, for example, can really protect your carries. He will open with the AoE ult, follow that by Bandage Toss stunning somebody who is going at your carry, exhausting another person going at your carry, and then popping Randuin's to slow down the speed and AS of anybody near your carry. Thats a heck of a lot of protection for your carry.

Shen is probably better at just tanking since he has more personal protection, but Amumu still does the job (Amumu is considered better overall because he is still good at tanking, but much better than Shen at jungling and ganking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NailThe******* View Post
LoL tanks are soley based on the items you buy in-game. If I buy "tank" items, I'm building my champ into a tank.
No, you are building an off tank in general. If you dont have a way of controlling a teamfight, you arent tanking. Morde, for example, is not a tank, he is an offtank if you build him with lots of tank items.


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Azrayel

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Senior Member

11-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester3609 View Post
The concept of a "TANK" doesn't really translate well into LoL from other games.
I agree with this completely. If you consider the use of a tank in an MMO, it's to manage and hold aggro. The high armor, health, etc, is only there to keep him alive while he takes all the hate the NPC's can put out. This is most often accomplished by "tanky" classes, complete with taunts and the like, but I contend that any character or player who can keep aggro on them (without dying) long enough to kill the enemy is, by default, a tank.

The reason this works "slightly-less-gooder" in LoL is that it's a lot harder to manage the aggro of living, breathing, thinking, reasoning, communicating opponents than it is a computer program. Building tanky items in LoL really just gets you ignored (in my experience) until all the carries and casters and support crew are dead, and then you get focus-fired. This is why I don't auto-dodge when we have no tank in solo queue; communication and guerilla tactics will let us continue to pump out damage even without a tank, as long as we play smart and stay alive.


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Alex Pan

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Senior Member

11-22-2010

Tryndamere's only tankability from from Q and R. He can't get any items to help scale, and he is extremely squishy apart from his ult. Aside from initiating, getting exhausted, and helplessly spinning away with 1hp, he doens't contribute anything. He has 0 cc for teams what are willing to fight back, and you're essentially removing a carry from your team by having him initiate. After he initiates, he can't follow up like other tanks can.


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Larson McMurphy

Senior Member

11-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazikarl View Post
No. Let me run through the scenario where you are fighting a team of non morons above 900 or so ELO.

Karthus turns on his AOE and charges in. The other team isnt a bunch of morons and doesnt blow their CC on a guy who can keep casting after he dies anyway. Instead, they rape the **** out of the opposing team's carries. Karthus kindly asks them to stop that, but they dont listen (mostly because Karthus has bad CC and no taunts). Maybe he can even slow down a few of them so that the carry rape takes a half second longer.

Now your carries are dead and Karthus, late game, certainly doesnt have enough damage to hurt the other team enough. They clean up Karthus at their leisure. Then your team mocks you for trying to tank with Karthus and probably rage quits.
Any competent player will not run through Karthus's wall if they don't have too. Don't forget that its not just a slow, it debuffs armor and magic resistance by 35. If your team were to do that they carry raping would be happening the other way around. Your team would get raped because their effective health would be lower by 35% of their max health. So late game, that means they're losing about 700 effective health. Ignoring Karthus's wall and running through it anyway is a really good way to get your team aced.


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Xtchizobr

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Senior Member

11-22-2010

*grumbles* i've been saying this for what seems like ages...

going 6/0/30 with Tankgana does wonders to shut people up, though.