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How Do you think Saint is doing?

Better without Elementz 3 20%
Worse without Elementz 7 46.67%
Bout the same 5 33.33%
Voters 15 .

Curse: Saint Vicious vs. Elementz

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Royal Waffle

Member

06-16-2013

For everyone talking that Saint is good. Have you watched the recent summer split games? He is 6-18-44 2nd from the bottom in KDA 5th in assist, 5th in GPM, 5th in minion kills, and 4th in Avg gold. for someone that has played for 3 seasons this doesnt show to much. Ever since he and Elementz had that fight, when saint was drunk (He is alot apparently), and they let Elementz go, Saint has sucked even more and their team is now suffering from it.

Just some quick stats: With Elementz in the roster, Saint went 75-81-260 through spring split with a KDA of .926 avg 2.7 kills 2.9 deaths and 9.3 assist a game. Since Elementz departure, he is 14-43-122 with a KDA of .326 and avg 1.27 kills 3.9 deaths and 11.09 assist a game. For those that say well 28 games > 11 games so stats vary, here are the first 11 games saint played with Elementz. 33-32-89 with a avg of 1.03. he had 2.4x more kills with Elementz, but without him he has 1.3x more deaths and 1.4x more assist.

More kills = shut down players and in team fights an adv. ALSO with Elementz they had a 9-2 start. w/o him they are 3-8. 3x more wins with Elementz and 4x more losses without. Numbers say it all. Saint is worse without Elementz on the team. Team based game yes but team is only as strong as their weakest linked and it looks like its Saint.

I harp on the Elementz deal, for he was my favorite support player and what I believe held the team together. Being a Curse, fan I hate to watch them lose over and over again, I do believe there needs to be a change For curse so they can proceed to get better and hopefully start winning games again and I believe that the problem is Saint. His communication as well as his leadership to the team is severely negative and has shown to bring the team down. So this I do believe he is ONE of the WORSE junglers in the NA LCS as right now. Which means he is ONE of the WORSE junglers in the LoL pro circuit.

For those that disagree, you are entitled to your own opinion and can believe whatever you want to believe, but I will say that I do have numbers that support my case for this years LCS.

Opinions and reponses are welcomed


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MicKretz

Senior Member

06-17-2013

I'm waiting for Edward to get comfortable with NA scene and then tell Saint, "you suck!!!"

surely Edward knows this or will come to know this hahahahahha


I actually enjoyed the recent Saint vs Hotshot drama more then the Saint vs Elementz drama to be honest


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

06-17-2013

Given that Curse had 1 day of practice with Edward before the Summer Split started... and that Elementz had been a long-standing team member before the Spring Split started, I'd say this thread is ridiculously premature.

Also.... how in the world are you mathing? No NA team has played more than 5 games in the Summer Split. Are you throwing in the games that Curse played with Rhux at support?


And you do realize that Elementz is a platinum player, right? His account is sitting in Diamond 5 right now, I imagine because someone carried him... but he's a platinum player. As far as I know, every other LCS pro is Diamond 1 or Challenger tier.

And what's more? Edward was EU's all-star support player.



If you would just watch Curse's matches instead of going off the stats, you'd see Edward's support play is at a level beyond anyone else in the NA Scene... it's just a matter of the team getting in sync. They'll be practicing all these week, and they'll already be much improved for week 2 of the LCS. You don't have to start 5-0 to win the Split.


And if Elementz is such a strong support player, how come he couldn't get a spot on a team? I mean, until Curse started falling apart at the end of the season, they were easily considered the best team throughout the majority of the season. If you think Elementz is the reason they were so strong through the majority of the Spring, then how come none of the other teams picked up Elementz? He's not even a sub for any of the teams. He's a coach.


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Royal Waffle

Member

07-08-2013

Im including every game they played without Elementz on the team. That included every game in the series for the spring split championship. Who cares if elementz is still a platinum level player. Team is about synergy. Look at what the NA said before they went to the allstars, They talked about how their champion play matches the skill of other countries but the Koreans have better synergy. they mesh to turn tables in their favor. If you're looking solely on individuals then yes you are right about Edward vs Elementz, But as you can clearly see even with a "better player" Curse is having a hard time winning and even been throwing games like the last one vs c9. But this forum was about elementz and saint. Main point was Saint did better with elementz than he is doing without and numbers show that. Saint needs to let his pride go and learn to listen and take in from others, rather than control them.

As for elementz not getting picked up.... why? you have your roster and it's deep into the season. Picking up a person now, even as an alt, means training time and training time is something alot of teams just dont have (teaching elementz their style of play). As a coach elementz can study their team play and help with spots, times, team comp, and strat. Its easier to teach than it is to execute. Plus another voice to learn about other teams is very helpful, especially if you once played for a team.

ill take a bunch of good players that win together than a bunch of allstars that cant work together. Curse is 4-8 right now... week 4 in spring they were 9-2... still wanna say that elementz wasnt a key factor to their team?


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GoJuKempo

Recruiter

07-08-2013

You are assuming that all the other teams stayed at the exact same skill level for when Elementz was on the team till now. That's a major flaw, you state that curse is losing because elementz is not on the team, might it not be that the other teams have improved more before the split than curse did since all the teams had bonding time where curse is still growing with the addition of Edward (4 weeks in not so long compared to how long some teams have been playing together and know how each other are going to react)


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Gnome04

Senior Member

07-08-2013

Obvious non sequitur in the OP. A wild formal logic appears.


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Royal Waffle

Member

07-08-2013

not assuming that they are staying the same but that all teams are improving at same rate (week by week) which makes it negligible. throughout the spring with elementz curse played well. when he was dropped the team fell. during the summer without elementz at the start the team didnt play well. you're right with edward not being there, but look at clg who made alot of changes and have 3 new players from spring. they are doing fine 7-5 and in third place. which then makes your argument flawed. also 4 weeks of playing.... you know how the other person is going to act. they clock in 40+ hour weeks in playing. 160 hours of game time ) practices, skrims, solo que streams, etc.) .... you know by now.


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Vepenar

Senior Member

07-08-2013

I feel it wasn't as much of elementz being dropped that hurt the team as much as his playstyle being dropped. If you look at cop throughout the spring split he pretty much exclusively played MF as relatively passive ADC. that matched up perfectly with elementz passive supporting style. Yet when the team picked up Edward a support player known for being ridiculously aggressive. that messed up the bot lane pretty hard as you can't take a passive player and turn them into an aggressive player and vice versa. Edward was also a late pick up so in the process of adjusting to Edward, Cop has to expand his pool of adc's instead of just playing MF. So not only does Curse's bot lane have to find a way to mesh their opposing play styles together. Adjusting a duo lane is way harder than adjusting to the top lane or jungle. Also using CLG as an example is kind of invalid as they only actually have 1 new player. Bigfatlp was a former clg mid, so they are use to playing with him, chauster use to be support before the spring spilt, so the onyl one that really had to adjust was nien. but all in all I hope Curse can pull it togethor, and atleast come out as a top 4 team.


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Blue Brain

Senior Member

07-09-2013

I dont' think it has anything to do with elementz and everything to do with saintvicious' attitude. Saint is a good player but not a good jungler. He definitely doesnt have the jungler instincts like an oddone. Every time I see saint he just wants to "go in". Carrying from the jungle, taxing lane, arguing with teammates when he's in the wrong...all of it spells a-hole for me. His playstyle doesnt suit curse's. As soon as I heard saint was NA's jungler I thought GG. As I said, good player, but he cant synergize with everyone because of his egotistic attitude.


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Fluffy207

Senior Member

07-09-2013

As a huge Curse fan myself I am still upset that Elementz is gone. I think that team cohesion and moral is a huge factor in winning pro games. I don't know why you would have a roster change when you are the number one team in NA. The decision for Elementz to leave left me pretty disappointed in Saint and Curse.

Edward is an EU All-Star support player though, so I'm hoping that in time they build their team play back up. I really think Curse needs to really look at their champion pool with Edward on the team now. After one of Curse's defeats earlier in the lcs, a player from another team said in an interview that Curse is losing because Nyjacky, Saint, and Cop all tend to never feed but at the same time never really carry. And I think that's true. Hopefully Curse will look at some new strategies and team comps. For example, Nyjacky has recently done very well on Jayce, and he normally likes to play really safe champions. So hopefully they will continue to pick up on some different champions.


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