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The real problem: Mana regen

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Kalarepa

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Quote:
Babycakes:
I think people are easily confused with the OPs point. Have you ever tried rushing chalice/boots in Summoner's Rift and been able to spam as hard? No actually. Chalice isnt as strong on Summoner's Rift. It's the mana regen aura that's making chalice so strong.

Try it yourself and see if you can spam 100 spears all day every time its off cooldown. Without the MP/5 aura, chalice is actually a balanced item.


Mana regen aura and the fact, that you don't have enough money to start with Chalice + potions/boots/whatever in SR.

Looks like we all agree, that mana regen (especially Chalice) is a problem in HA. The question is, how can we inform Riot about it? Do they even read this subforum?


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Zielmann

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Quote:
Youniverse:
Well then they have to build for it or take clarity. Keeping chalice/grail the way it is and giving out free mp5 is causing a lot of problems as stated by OP. BUT I don't want to change the passive ARAM mp5, I would like it removed entirely. Most melee champs/tanks that have mana never get to take advantage of it anyways as they die way too often (save for alistar who needs to be toned down).

If you don't want to worry about your mana, you need to sacrifice damage in the early game.


You are correct, but I would argue that the game is healthier now than before. Clarity was a mandatory spell for anybody that used mana. Mana manip was a necessary thing for somebody on the team to have. But, as I said, the end result is that players still got to cast without having to conserve mana.

Now, players can actually choose what they want for summoner spells. No more mandatory clarity. And in the early game, they can gauge how much their mana needs will be. Chalice and tear are the most commonly-cited early mana items. But some champs don't need that much mana or regen. Catalyst is actually a very strong start for some champions who might want to go for RoA or possibly veil later on.

The whole point is that not having to worry about mana is such a strong mechanic that players will figure out how to do it. Change or remove the passive on the map? Mana Manip or Clarity will come back into favor to replace it. And then people will be just as frustrated as they are now.


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Dessim8

Senior Member

06-16-2013

The thing about mana manipulator was that, while it was once mandatory, it had some amazing items it could grow into besides the situational Ice Shard, both of which are now removed. If Spirit Shroud and its CDR aura existed in today's ARAM, it would be up there with Bulwark as the most required item for any team, even a team of 3 Ninjas, Kat and Vlad would probably get it for the CDR.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Lots of posts are suggesting that they should remove Chalice but you are forgetting that Chalice amplifies other sources of mana regen the lower your mana gets. What happens now with Chalice and Tear is that your ability to spam is not reduced as your mana costs increase because your mana regen is scaling extremely well with your natural mana per level (giving you more mp/5) and mp/5 per level.

Honestly, the mp/5aura can be changed or removed entirely. My suggestion in the first post (3mp/5 per 200 max mana to 3mp/5 + 1mp/5 per 200 max mana) would help in the sense that mana costs would outscale your mana regen at some point if you buy Chalice or Tear. But I would not see a problem if they would remove the mana regen passive completely from the map.

Edit: Maybe if the aura was removed we would see clarity be useful again? Not necessarly stacking clarities like in SR ARAM since you can still start with a strong mana regen item like Chalice but one or two that you use once your team hits 6 or before a team fight?


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Random Shards

Member

06-16-2013

Why do we need to change the mana "situation" in HA? Champions are not balances around HA, and changing things like the mana aura in HA will just make a new set of champs really strong.

Honestly, do people want to play this game mode and worry about mana? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some thought put into mana, but building a Tear -> AA or Chalice -> Grail or a RoA is a large gold investment, and that does require thought being put in. There is no blue buff for casters to play with, and if you take away the mana regen, then casters are going to be boring as hell.

Do you really want to sit there in HA and go...well I could use my abilities and have fun, or I should I just sit here and auto-attack so I have mana for something that may present itself in a minute or two.


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Babycakes

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Quote:
Random Shards:
Why do we need to change the mana "situation" in HA? Champions are not balances around HA, and changing things like the mana aura in HA will just make a new set of champs really strong.

Honestly, do people want to play this game mode and worry about mana? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some thought put into mana, but building a Tear -> AA or Chalice -> Grail or a RoA is a large gold investment, and that does require thought being put in. There is no blue buff for casters to play with, and if you take away the mana regen, then casters are going to be boring as hell.

Do you really want to sit there in HA and go...well I could use my abilities and have fun, or I should I just sit here and auto-attack so I have mana for something that may present itself in a minute or two.


Nobody wants to take away your precious mana regen.

So basically your whole arguement is saying that you want to promote a spam-fest environment free from any thought processes, a game mode so easy that an infant could play it? Mash your head on the keyboard, QWEQWEQWEEQWEWQEQ. I am officially a Diamond ARAM player. AMA.

Please.

Nobody is asking to remove your precious mana regen. A slight nerf, or a tweak to balance it a bit will reduce the dominance of Sona Nidalee Lux in ARAM and let other champions become more viable. End of discussion.


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Random Shards

Member

06-16-2013

Quote:
Babycakes:
Nobody wants to take away your precious mana regen.

So basically your whole arguement is saying that you want to promote a spam-fest environment free from any thought processes, a game mode so easy that an infant could play it? QWEQWEQWEEQWEWQEQ. I am officially a Diamond ARAM player. AMA.

Please.

Nobody is asking to remove your precious mana regen. A slight nerf, or a tweak to balance it a bit will reduce the dominance of Sona Nidalee Lux in ARAM and let other champions become more viable. End of discussion.


Let other champions become more viable? This is ARAM, it doesn't matter how "viable" a champ is, because the game mode is based around 5v5 fights. The only champ you listed that is amazing in any comp is Sona, she is out of whack in ARAM, but a Nidalee, Lux, insert other "OP" ARAM champ can completely suck if their team comp doesn't support them, or the other team just ends up with a better comp.

To be quite honest, I would rather have a Spam-Fest as you put it HA, because it is more fun for everyone. You aren't sitting around last hitting like in SR, the game mode is about fighting, and 90% of the champs in this game need mana to do that.

Like another poster said, when ARAM was in SR, you had several people with clarity per team, and someone always bought a mana manipulator. The reason is pretty simple, mana is good. The same champs that are "OP" now, were "OP" then too, even without a mana aura. If you take away / nerf the mana regen aura to the point that people need clarity / mana manipulator again, you can bet they are going to just take / buy them. That doesn't add any more fun, infact having to take clarity instead of Heal / Flash / Cleanse / Barrier whatever, is probably going to be less fun, and it isn't going to suddenly make any one else more viable.

No mana regen existed on SR, the same champs that are amazing in HA were amazing in SR, I'm not sure why people think it is the mana regen that is causing these champs to be good and others to be less useful.


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Youniverse

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Quote:
Random Shards:

To be quite honest, I would rather have a Spam-Fest as you put it HA, because it is more fun for everyone. You aren't sitting around last hitting like in SR, the game mode is about fighting, and 90% of the champs in this game need mana to do that.

infact having to take clarity instead of Heal / Flash / Cleanse / Barrier whatever, is probably going to be less fun, and it isn't going to suddenly make any one else more viable.



Spam fest is fun for everyone? Maybe if it's spam team vs spam team. Let's be honest tho, most champs aren't spammers. 90% of champs in this game need mana, Yes. But of those 90% of champs, a lot of them will be fine with removing the passive mp5 and/or chalice.

Some are debatable but imo these mana champs won't be affected: Amumu, Annie, Ashe, Blitz, Chogath, Corki, Darius, Diana, Draven, Elise, Eve, Fiddle, Fiora, Fizz, Gragas, Graves, Hecarim, Jarvan, Jax, Kayle, Khazix, AD kog, Leona, Lulu, Malphite, Maokai, Miss Fortune, Nasus, Natuilus, Nocturne, Nunu, Olaf, Pantheon, Poppy, Quinn, Rammus, Ryze, Sej, Shaco, Singed, Sion, Sivir, Skarner, Talon, Teemo, Thresh, Trist, Trundle, Twitch, Udyr, Varus, Vayne, Vi, Volibear, Wukong, Xin, Zac (if you look at this list, most of these champions will die before they even come close to running out of mana)

AND to restate what others have said, mana manipulator built into something useful before and ARAM SR never had barrier or was introduced wayy later when people were set on clarity being mandatory. BUT besides that, if this nerf to mana regen were implemented you would only take clarity if you had champs like sona, nid, lux, etc, WHICH IS GOOD. One less flash/heal/ignite/exhaust does not make the game stale and should be seen as indirect nerfs to those ridiculous champions.

EDIT: I realized that it probably would have been better to list out who would have been affected by this nerf:
Ahri, Alistar, Anivia, Brand, Cassiopeia, Ezreal, Heimerdinger, Janna, Jayce, Karma, Karthus, Lux, Malzahar, Nidalee, Orianna, Sona, Soraka, Swain, Syndra, Twisted Fate, Veigar, Xerath, Ziggs, Zilean, Zyra

25 out of the 114 champions will be affected. I own most of these champs and I cannot name 1 out of the 25 that will become terrible with this change. The less bombs being thrown by Ziggs, the less heals given by Sona, the less lasers piercing through enemies by Lux are all things I welcome.


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newbin

Senior Member

06-16-2013

If you change the map mana regen it willn't effect casters since they usually have regen items in their build. You will in fact cripple melee heroes that rely on mana. They can build mana but not regen and would limit their builds. Your better off putting in a soft cap from mana regen with deminishing returns past that point.

Honestly I would think RIOT would have already looked at this issue when they made that map.

From the lack of riot posts in this forum I believe riot has looked at all the issues with this map before they released it, which is why they don't post. It is either that or they don't care and realise this mode is a waste of time to develop. This mode is centered around random teams you will have good games and bad games some champs excellent better at team fights then others which makes them really strong in this mode. Random means random not balanced.


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Shjade Nexayre

Senior Member

06-18-2013

Quote:
Youniverse:
Well then they have to build for it or take clarity. Keeping chalice/grail the way it is and giving out free mp5 is causing a lot of problems as stated by OP.

If you don't want to worry about your mana, you need to sacrifice damage in the early game.


I'm confused. How is building a chalice and a tear not building for it already? That is a sacrifice in damage in the early game. You're making no sense there.