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The real problem: Mana regen

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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

06-15-2013

So I've seen lots of posts recently about how the top 15 champs are all magic damage, about how healers are op, about how they should increase the healing debuff on the map, blah blah blah pls remove Mister Yi.

Well to me it all boils down to one big problem. The mana regen in the map aura. Now that you look closely, all the top 15 champions are mana champions.

The mana regen passive is currently +3mp/5 for every 200 max mana you have. The biggest problem with the bonus mana regen passive is its immense synergy with Chalice and Tear. Chalice amplifies your mana regen the lower your mana bar gets and Tear builds up more mana which also gives you more mp/5 because of the map passive.

Healers and mages don't even need to manage their mana pools when buying one of these 2 items. They can simply use all of their abilities whenever they are off cooldown which is completely stupid. When Nidalee misses a spear, it doesn't matter, she can throw an infinite amount, heal her team and cover the bushes with traps all at the same time.

From SR to PG/HA, healers got their heals reduced by 20% but now have an infinite mana pool, making them even more powerful than before. I don't remember Sona being able to "QWEQWEQWEQWEQWEQWEQWE" non stop in SR ARAM, she had to manage her mana carefully, just like any other mages. I also remember Sona, Lux and Nid (among a bunch of others) being some of the most powerful champions in ARAM, so why give them an infinite amount of mana on the "official ARAM map".

For all I understand, lots of the changes from SR to PG/HA were made to help melee champions and champions with weak early game be more viable in "the official ARAM" but it's really gotten out of control. The champions that were imba before are now even more imba. The addition of "guardian's horn" really helped the targeted champions but I can't imagine that Riot's intention with the bonus mp/5 was to make the top tier champions from SR ARAM even more unstoppable in PG/HA.

The change I suggest:
Change the bonus mana regen from +3mp/5 for every 200 max mana to +3mp/5 flat + 1mp/5 per 200 max mana . Most champions have around 300~400 mana at lv3, which means nearly no change for the early game of low mana pool champions but a slight nerf to high mana pool champions. Currently, everyone gets around +4~5 mp/5 at lv3 (from their base mana only). With the change, most champions would get +4 at lv3 but would get less than before as their mana pool increases with levels.

With this change, most melee tanks/bruisers and ADC (champions that don't usually build huge mana pools) would benefit from the aura almost as if there was no change, but mages and healers that build Chalice or Tear will now need to manage their mana (at least a little more).

TL,DR: Chalice/Tear = infinite mana, imba champions (healers, mages) abusing infinite mana, change bonus mana regen aura from +3mp/5 per 200 max mana to +3mp/5 flat +1mp/5 per 200 max mana so that the targeted champions need to manage their mana more.

Post-wall-of-text: I don't know if the change would actually have a strong impact or not. All I'm saying is if it can make Nidalee or Sona think about if she should Heal or Poke instead of just doing both brainlessly it would be perfect.

Edit1: I also remember in SR ARAM, Clarity was actually useful, but now it's the absolute worst summoner spell in the game because you get so much free mp/5 + can start Chalice or Tear.


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Zielmann

Senior Member

06-15-2013

In SR ARAM, mana was infinite as well, because Clarity wasn't just useful, it was mandatory.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what you do to the map-wide mana regen. People will find a way for mana to be a non-factor because it's just that powerful to not have to worry about resources.


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Youniverse

Senior Member

06-15-2013

Quote:
Zielmann:

Frankly, it doesn't matter what you do to the map-wide mana regen. People will find a way for mana to be a non-factor because it's just that powerful to not have to worry about resources.


Well then they have to build for it or take clarity. Keeping chalice/grail the way it is and giving out free mp5 is causing a lot of problems as stated by OP. BUT I don't want to change the passive ARAM mp5, I would like it removed entirely. Most melee champs/tanks that have mana never get to take advantage of it anyways as they die way too often (save for alistar who needs to be toned down).

If you don't want to worry about your mana, you need to sacrifice damage in the early game.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

06-15-2013

Quote:
Zielmann:
In SR ARAM, mana was infinite as well, because Clarity wasn't just useful, it was mandatory.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what you do to the map-wide mana regen. People will find a way for mana to be a non-factor because it's just that powerful to not have to worry about resources.

Mana was only infinite on SR if you had 5 clarities (also maybe a mm) and you chained them properly... which costs you summoner spells . Currently, there is no downside in building Chalice or Tear since they are core to most concerned champions. On SR, there was a punishing factor to relieve your mana problems which was to use clarity and not be able to use another desired summoner spell. On HA, there is no punishing factor at all for the same reward.


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Kalarepa

Senior Member

06-15-2013

I always said, too easy access to mana regen is an issue in PG/HA. This mode came to the point, where you buy Chalice and forget, that mana even exists.

Remember, that mana is in this game for a reason. You should be worry about your mana, if you don't manage it, you simply run out of it. And runing out of mana is normal thing and important access of the game. Seriously, some people act like ARAM would become very boring, if you ran out of mana from time to time.
Mana is a resource, a problem. If you make that problem meaningless, balance in game is heavily affected and the result is 70% win rate Sona for example.


Imo, Riot should at least remove Chalice and Athene, because they're the most toxic items in this mode. Warmog wasn't even close. Tear isn't that good early (at least you can run ouf of mana with it), it scales into late late game and late game of mages is fine.


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FDru

Senior Member

06-16-2013

This is an issue in Dominion as well, though a different subset of champs benefit from it (that's more due to the map geometry though).

The problem is that champs are balanced for SR laning, and mana constraints are the only thing that keeps many champs in check. Take those constraints away and you might as well just throw all balance out the window.


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Babycakes

Senior Member

06-16-2013

I agree with a lot of this. Pigeon brings up plenty of excellent points.

A change like this would really balance out the sustain/poke meta. Like OP says, most poke champs can just spam spells over and over again with no worry about landing their skillshots. With all the excess mana regen, you aren't punished for spamming all your spells. Champions like Nidalee late game can heal for 1000 and still be able to spam spears and traps all day without ever running out of mana. This isn't balanced at all.

TL;DR: Reducing the MP/5 aura should tone down the dominant poke/sustain meta and allow counterplay by punishing you for missing your skillshots and force you to make the choice - Should I use my mana to poke? or to heal?


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EndlessHelix

Senior Member

06-16-2013

Look, this is a bit too harsh of a first step, isn't it? If every ability spamming, mana using champion was a problem, then I'd agree with the OP. Urgot, Ezreal, Gangplank, Cassiopeia, Ryze, Karthus, Ahri, Oriana... lots of ability spammers are fine. Nerfing the global mp/5 would do very little in to correct the issue. The reality is the top AP's who dominate the map all can build Athene's Unholy Grail without significantly impacting their damage output, which is what really gives them infinite mana. Remove Athene's, replace it with a version without its ridiculous passive that regens 12% of your maximum mana on kills or assists.

I don't think I've played an ARAM with less than 20 deaths, all said and done. Do the math.

We can't really control what comps we get dealt, we may not have the right runes, masteries are a fairly subtle influence at best, but we can control our itemization 100% of the time. That's why a solution kind of has to come from that sector. Maybe some sort of Grievous Wounds late game option for AD, maybe some early aura items for tanks that don't scale as well into late game, maybe some weaker life steal options for AD carries, more soft cc available through itemization; I can see a lot of options to balance out the current issues people are having.


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Demonic Instinct

Senior Member

06-16-2013

I have always believed that chalice was the biggest problem when it comes to certain unbalanced comps on HA, but not everyone will agree with me.

The simple fact is that since most mana hungry champions can start with an item that virtually eliminates mana issues, means that all mana management goes out the window so the gap between a team with poke and a team with no poke will become very apparent.

What I would love would be to completely remove chalice and all it's build paths from the Howling Abyss. They removed warmogs for balancing purposes so I see no harm in removing chalice. Will people still find a way to have near infinite mana? Probably. However, it will be harder and cost more rather than a simple 880 gold straight from the start.

Bonus idea: They should create an aram-specific item to replace chalice, similar to guardians horn. Make it similar to the current chalice, although not as strong and slightly more expensive, with possibly an active. Since it will be more expensive, slightly less effective, and lack a build path, it would help to fix many of the imbalanced champions that are only that way due to easy access of near infinite mana.


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Babycakes

Senior Member

06-16-2013

I think people are easily confused with the OPs point. Have you ever tried rushing chalice/boots in Summoner's Rift and been able to spam as hard? No actually. Chalice isnt as strong on Summoner's Rift. It's the mana regen aura that's making chalice so strong.

Try it yourself and see if you can spam 100 spears all day every time its off cooldown. Without the MP/5 aura, chalice is actually a balanced item.