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@Riot: Please Remove Smite (?)

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MathMage

Senior Member

11-21-2010

EDIT: I have bumped this thread because I feel it is relevant in the wake of Guinsoo's pronouncements about potential jungle changes. I feel that people who QQ about "catering to overextending noobs" simply don't have the imagination to see how this could affect the game and adapt accordingly, and would rather complain about how this will ruin the game. I disagree. I think Guinsoo's proposed changes will make for a more dynamic laning experience.

EDIT2: Incoming!!! A full year after I first posted this thread, we're finally seeing some of the changes discussed here take hold. Lowering the dependence on a full-clearing Smite-carrying dedicated jungler is really going to open up team comp flexibility. I'm excited to see what people will do after the patch.


Rumors abound about an impending removal of Smite. I have no idea as to their veracity, but it's an interesting intellectual exercise nonetheless. What would the impact be on the game? How would other mechanics need to be adjusted to account for it? Is it really a good idea?

I think removing Smite and lowering the HP of jungle creeps would make things extremely interesting early on. One of the reasons why having a jungler is so powerful early is that only one person on each team can jungle effectively, thanks to a summoner spell. Having one person on each team able to dragon at level 4, when everyone else on the team needs help even at 6, promotes a "leave dragon alone until one of the junglers goes, then gank him" mentality. Everything about jungling makes the laners want to just stick in their lanes and farm. If everyone on the team was able to go grab blue buff when they needed to, laning without a dedicated jungler would be a tremendously fluid experience, with people taking turns hopping into the jungle to grab/steal buffs, ganking, switching lanes at the drop of a hat. It would reduce the viability of having a dedicated jungler--wouldn't remove it completely, as long as jungling lets you keep up in levels and provide xp/gold advantage, but the increased risk of getting buffs stolen, combined with the increased ease of getting neutral creeps for laners, would promote a lot of semi-jungler strategies and counter-jungling strategies, rather than the current "jungler/no jungler" dichotomy.

Jungle creeps would need to start weak and scale, in every aspect, for this to work. Low HP/armor/buff strength early, high HP/armor/buff strength late. Anyone can jungle in the current game after 6 or so, so there's no reason to gimp creeps after that point. And with the current non-scaling buffs, early game would be a series of lane dominations by whoever got them; buffs would need to start weaker and grow to where they are now. This gimps mana-dependent junglers somewhat, but that would be counterbalanced by the weak early creeps.

I like the current system. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it. But I would be excited to see something like the changes outlined above implemented in League of Legends. It would deepen gameplay complexity, make the early game more dynamic--and best of all, it'd permanently obsolete the "Why would anybody jungle without Smite?" QQ threads.


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MathMage

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Reserved for other jungle ideas posters may have.

One common criticism that's arisen on this thread is that dedicated jungling will still be much better than semi-jungling, that junglers will have been buffed, and that there's no benefit to semi-jungling. So I decided to list some reasons why a team might want to semi-jungle.

1. Getting multiple people in the jungle means three solo lanes of experience for whoever's still laning, albeit not all the time. Everyone levels well, unlike the current setup where the duo lane is typically far behind early and the dedicated jungler is often behind late.
2. The jungle will be cleared faster with multiple people doing it, and they can do it together or separately, unlike the current double jungle scenarios that are only close to viable when Nunu works together with another good jungler.
3. If multiple characters in an otherwise good team comp are best in the jungle, this lets them reach their potential without undue interference.
4. More MIAs means the enemy has to be more cautious.
5. Semi-junglers are more likely to be within easy reach of a gank or fight in any lane. I can't count the number of gank opportunities I've missed because my jungle path had taken me to the opposite side of the map.
6. Mid can be covered without giving up the team's opportunity to jungle.
7. Multiple semi-junglers can coordinate an invasion to outdo the dedicated jungler, or a three-man gank on mid, and because they're often MIA it's harder to predict when they'll do it.
8. Good laners that are also good junglers can do both.

Remember, the jungler does get the opportunity to jungle while having two summoner spells...but everyone else effectively gets the benefit of Smite. So this change represents a buff to everyone, not just the junglers.

Quote:
Amadi:

MethMage: The reasons why soft-jungling is not popular in SR.
1st: Creeps are too tough.
2nd: Dedicated jungler does it better.
3rd: Creep locations.

The first two issues are more or less negligible. TT fulfills the first one, and second is the byproduct of first and third. Creeps being too tough for most champions just ends up with people picking champions capable of taking them down if they see enough benefit in soft-jungling.

The third one is the big one. The main path on which champions move between lanes to gank is the river. Only Baron and Dragon, both of which are team objectives more than individual creeps, reside there. If the blue buff was between bot and mid lane on the river, and red buff between mid and top, there would be a lot more action around them. Think Grez on TT? He's really contested.

River also divides the map to sides way too well. It does it well enough that jungle is split. Dedicated junglers often just keep their side. They stick there, it's safe, opponent sticks to the other side. There is a huge risk in venturing to enemy side, because it's so well defined where the line goes. This is also why people do not gank junglers all the time - going to enemy side is too risky. You do not have many escape routes, while they have plenty. Further, you risk people blocking the few routes you do have.

Ideally, there should be one creep pack, say wraiths, behind sidelanes on the very side of the map for the sidelane to fight over - to promote pushing, instead of standing at tower. Buff-mobs should spawn on the river right between lanes. That way they are near for people to defend/steal them from enemy junglers. They are also in a location where you can grab them and go gank. Another weak creepcamp, like the wolves, should be near mid on both sides. This would be something the mid can take if he has the time, or if pushing further would get risky.

There also should be more entrances to this jungle from lanes. Mid is doing fine in this respect - sides aren't. Frankly, this is a bit stupid considering mid is the solo lane and side lanes are the ones where you could expect people to leave for jungling.

Magma Chamber might fix some of this with better layout. I hope Riot detains from any huge changes to jungling before that release.


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Matthew21210

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Rabid downvoting, why?
+1 to keep simple, intellectual discourse opening post open...


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AgentX

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Were did you get this, they are getting rid of flash, I hope


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Call Me Jebus

Senior Member

11-21-2010

I would not enjoy this kind of a game..But +1 because it was well written and has intent behind it.


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Maestro Kenteko

Senior Member

11-21-2010

The situation you proposed is something that generally happens in TT. The main reason it won't work in Summoner's Rift is simply size. Leaving your lane means you lose XP, gold, and if nobody is there means you may get pushed so turret HP is lost as well. This means that if you are constantly swapping lanes, hopping around, etc the person who stays behind will eventually outlevel you and your game ends up ruined in the long run.

Dedicated junglers give more experience to more people all around, it's the primary reason to do it. Ganking potential as well creates early gold and starts the team on the right path. The problem with believing that anyone will constantly roll in or out of a jungle is that XP/gold is better in a lane (typically) and time spent moving is time not spent killing. Most junglers excel due to their high mobility, removing smite mainly means that instead of about a dozen or so viable junglers, you now only have 2-3.

Again, your idea CAN and DOES work within Twisted Treeline, to some extent, but it does so because TT is very compact and fluid in its design. It's meant to be roamed around in and ambushed near constantly, which is why all the creeps end up being weaker and just generally easier to kill for virtually anyone. Smite in TT exists more for buff stealing and helping to get XP quicker. If they try and remove smite and make SR into a TT style map (read: much weaker creeps) then there will still only be one dedicated jungler; the jungler in question will only be from a smaller base then much else.


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MathMage

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Quote:
Matthew21210:
Rabid downvoting, why?
+1 to keep simple, intellectual discourse opening post open...


Well, I chose a deliberately provocative title to get traffic, but I think it may have attracted reflexive downvotes as a result.

Quote:
AgentX:
Were did you get this, they are getting rid of flash, I hope


There's lots of forum "Pls nerf jungling/Pls don't nerf jungling" QQ (example (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=355305)) that seems directed at some hypothetical Riot statement about nerfing jungling. I can't link you to QQ about potential Smite removal, but I know I've seen it around, along with the obviously prevalent Flash QQ.


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SavageMinnow

Senior Member

11-21-2010

I very much do not support the removal of smite. It's something that separates good junglers from bad, and is a hefty chunk of the reason counter-jungling isn't extremely easy. A good jungler smites literally right as the buff minion hits the required HP; counter-jungling requires lightning reflexes and another smite, as well as a ward. Without smite, the best junglers are also the most open to having their buffs stolen.Burst damage like Nidalee (her spear) and most mages cannot jungle effectively at all, but they would make excellent buff stealers - real junglers would have absolutely no way to stop it since they simply can't deal 200-300 damage in one shot. At higher levels of play, there would no longer be any dedicated jungling because of the ease of buff stealing. I fear this would completely wreck champions like WW.


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MathMage

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Quote:
Maestro Kenteko:
The situation you proposed is something that generally happens in TT. The main reason it won't work in Summoner's Rift is simply size. Leaving your lane means you lose XP, gold, and if nobody is there means you may get pushed so turret HP is lost as well. This means that if you are constantly swapping lanes, hopping around, etc the person who stays behind will eventually outlevel you and your game ends up ruined in the long run.

Dedicated junglers give more experience to more people all around, it's the primary reason to do it. Ganking potential as well creates early gold and starts the team on the right path. The problem with believing that anyone will constantly roll in or out of a jungle is that XP/gold is better in a lane (typically) and time spent moving is time not spent killing. Most junglers excel due to their high mobility, removing smite mainly means that instead of about a dozen or so viable junglers, you now only have 2-3.


This is the mindset that forms around the jungler/no jungler dichotomy in SR. Removing Smite and weakening creeps encourages lane-switching because you can grab XP/gold in the jungle, on the way, to keep up. And for the time you are gone, your partner is gaining 1v2 experience and gold. This is a strategy without a dedicated jungler, and removing Smite and reducing creep strength makes it actually effective. Yes, the pool of people who are viable dedicated junglers would be reduced, because the viability of dedicated jungling would be reduced. If junglers are rewarded for high mobility, giving mobility to the rest of the team reduces the rewards of exclusively jungling--but I can't see that as a bad thing.

I'll admit I don't play much TT at all, so I can't speak to how things work there. But I don't get why this would be so ineffective on SR.


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MathMage

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Quote:
SavageMinnow:
I very much do not support the removal of smite. It's something that separates good junglers from bad, and is a hefty chunk of the reason counter-jungling isn't extremely easy. A good jungler smites literally right as the buff minion hits the required HP; counter-jungling requires lightning reflexes and another smite, as well as a ward. Without smite, the best junglers are also the most open to having their buffs stolen.Burst damage like Nidalee (her spear) and most mages cannot jungle effectively at all, but they would make excellent buff stealers - real junglers would have absolutely no way to stop it since they simply can't deal 200-300 damage in one shot. At higher levels of play, there would no longer be any dedicated jungling because of the ease of buff stealing. I fear this would completely wreck champions like WW.


Counter-jungling would become easier, but it would also become less ruinous, when the buffs are weaker and the jungler can simply swap with another champ in lane if he's too gimped to keep jungling. As Warwick can already jungle without smite, I feel any counterjungling issues are counteracted by the serious increase in speed he would enjoy. And at least Baron fights wouldn't come down to which jungler presses D faster.

EDIT: Also, Nidalee is an extremely effective jungler once you hit 6. This change would make her more viable in the jungle before 6 in any case.