Draven's new passive is making him not draven, and probably useless.

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Raisee

Junior Member

06-13-2013

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Originally Posted by Baval View Post
Ah but thats not the point of what im responding to is it? The post i responded to and you argued with me about is, to paraphrase, "If Draven and Darius dont both have bleeds, theyre not brothers anymore". Furthermore, Draven is a soldier and Darius is a circus preforming executioner. No, theyre not really close in job standards. Cass and Kat are closer seeing as theyre an assassin and a spy, and Nasus and Renekton? Theyre a librarian and a gatekeeper....yea. The only game i know of where Paladins are anti magic is Dragon Age (and even then theyre Templars, not Paladins), in pretty much every other source Paladins ARE spellcasters, and usually healers/light mages.


Now for your second point, by virtue of balance, NO carry is supposed to have a strong laning phase. It is the definition of the role. A carry has an extremely powerful lategame to "carry" the team to victory. If they had a strong early game too they would be strong at all phases of the game and be broken. If they dont have a strong lategame then they cant carry the game and so are not carries.

And now youre relying on assumptions to try and discount me. Thats cool, its the sign of a cornered man =)
You don't seem to have any logic do you.
I think your points are terrible and you can't refute the points other people have made so just stop.


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Baval

Senior Member

06-13-2013

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Originally Posted by Raisee View Post
You don't seem to have any logic do you.
I think your points are terrible and you can't refute the points other people have made so just stop.
Yes I do? Your opinion is your own, but objectively speaking yes i have refuted a few peoples points. For example: i refuted the point that a bleed mechanic is what makes Draven and Darius connected by lore, and i refuted the point that a passive based on Draven building up excitement in a crowd before laying a finishing blow was not Draven-y.

Seriously, at least Bass Cannon is bringing up decent points. Youre just downvoting and stating an objectively wrong opinion.


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CaptainFurious

Senior Member

06-13-2013

I personally believe that Draven is currently well balanced, high risk, high rewards. any nerfs or buffs are unnecissary.
The strength of Draven's bleed is balanced by his hideously low base attack damage, for reference, most casters, such as Anivia, have a higher base attack damage than Draven at lvl 1.
removing the bleed would be removing about a quarter of Draven's damage throughout the game making him a weak ADC. Draven relies heavily on his bleed for dps.
secondly, gold for champion kills is a waste of a passive. for those old school players I'm thinking of Katarina's old passive. Gold for champion kills is stupid because A: if you're behind you're not getting kills and the passive does nothing or B: If you're roflstomping the amount of gold you get on top of the gold for champions is negligable.
Draven is fine as is.
If the bleed is removed then Draven needs either a boost to his base damage to compensate or a passive that is actually helpful, not this gold on champion kill idiocy.


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chezwickcheese

Senior Member

06-13-2013

The proposed new passive fits his persona but is a knee jerk reaction from Riot. He is fine the way he is and doesn't need changing.


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Raisee

Junior Member

06-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baval View Post
Yes I do? Your opinion is your own, but objectively speaking yes i have refuted a few peoples points. For example: i refuted the point that a bleed mechanic is what makes Draven and Darius connected by lore, and i refuted the point that a passive based on Draven building up excitement in a crowd before laying a finishing blow was not Draven-y.

Seriously, at least Bass Cannon is bringing up decent points. Youre just downvoting and stating an objectively wrong opinion.
It's not just lore it's aesthetics.
Your rebuttal on the fact they are brothers was that there are other champions who have siblings but don't share the fact they have similar mechanics in which you were corrected with the renekton/nasus one. What you don't seem to understand is that the other champs who have siblings have nothing alike aka kat and cassi/garen and lux.
Draven and Darius seem to have a lot of common traits such as similar weapons/styles/splash the passive bleed seemed to mesh very well.
In hindsight yes it may be too strong but one thing about draven compared to other ADC is that he takes such a high skill cap to play, no built in escapes, it already is kind of high risk high reward due to the fact you have to be all in.

Also on to Lore I highly doubt he was doing the executions for gold it was the thrill of a kill, in someways yes the new passive fits in to his egotism but the gold part does not.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

06-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baval View Post
Ah but thats not the point of what im responding to is it? The post i responded to and you argued with me about is, to paraphrase, "If Draven and Darius dont both have bleeds, theyre not brothers anymore". Furthermore, Draven is a soldier and Darius is a circus preforming executioner. No, theyre not really close in job standards. Cass and Kat are closer seeing as theyre an assassin and a spy, and Nasus and Renekton? Theyre a librarian and a gatekeeper....yea. The only game i know of where Paladins are anti magic is Dragon Age (and even then theyre Templars, not Paladins), in pretty much every other source Paladins ARE spellcasters, and usually healers/light mages.
First, the post didn't say "they're not brothers if Draven loses his bleed." They were upset to be losing that similarity between the two.

Second, Draven and Darius are both executioners by trade; look at the lore. The difference is that Draven is a gladiator while Darius is more of a guard captain.

Third, yes, Nasus and Renekton have a different non-combat occupation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baval View Post
Now for your second point, by virtue of balance, NO carry is supposed to have a strong laning phase. It is the definition of the role. A carry has an extremely powerful lategame to "carry" the team to victory. If they had a strong early game too they would be strong at all phases of the game and be broken. If they dont have a strong lategame then they cant carry the game and so are not carries.
Okay, so...how do you explain Caitlyn?

She's a carry by archetype and design, but she has a very strong early game. She's pretty much unmatched in holding down a lane, between traps and her net. And yet, she has longer range than most carries and scales well into late game. Not AS well as other carries, mind you.

Draven has a strong laning phase, but a weak team phase if you don't perfectly micromanage him. The fact that his main steroid relies on him catching axes makes for a lot of difficulty in team fights. This is something easily done in the laning phase, because you're supposed to control a small area and keep track of your surroundings; team fights, however, happen anywhere and everywhere.

Draven's late game is okay, but the tendency for Spinning Axe to be more of a burst of damage than anything makes it appear not worth it. And yet, if you DON'T use it late game, you'll be out-DPS'd by every other carry. If this passive change actually gave him a late game advantage, I probably wouldn't care about losing the damage. But bonus gold, specifically on champ kill, rarely is a huge advantage late game; you tend to earn in the neighborhood of 200-300 gold from those things in a realistic game. Ooh, I can afford 8 more potions/4 more wards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baval View Post
And now youre relying on assumptions to try and discount me. Thats cool, its the sign of a cornered man =)
No, it's the sign of a man who needed his 6 hours of sleep. I wasn't trying to discount what you said; I was saying "you're not gonna hear from me for a few hours, because it's midnight" in my own way. Funny thing, how communication changes from person to person. I could have said it better, but that's what midnight does to my mind, among a few hundred other things.


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Basil Ali

Senior Member

06-14-2013

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Originally Posted by Chiseled Cactus View Post
Hello Summoners!

I am currently a diamond 2 player, with around 800 games as Draven in ranked this season alone, and countless more in season 2 and normal games. Reading the posts on the change to Draven's passive, I am unsure on how it will work, and what it is worth. Let's just go with a basic idea. It really will just remove how he works, and what he is worth. His entire kit pretty much revolves around this, and it changes it in a silly way. Yes, it is good that it rewards people for constantly juggling the axes, but only on catching? We really should look at things.
Hey, I know you're Diamond II player and everything and your immense amount of ranked games with Draven, but I don't understand what are you trying to say, "but only on catching?" I mean, that is what makes Draven's kit difficult to begin with, so I don't know where you're going with that. I'd love some more explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiseled Cactus View Post
SOLUTION 1: So, his damage output is incredibly high, he has no lane matchup supposedly, and will dominate no matter what. THIS IS NOT TRUE. You could have jungler gank, or force the draven to drop axes. "Oh, but he'll just ready up more!" Which is why a solution would be either increase the mana cost on Q, or increase the cooldown. This way, he can't just ready up another blade quickly, and is forced to juggle for longer, or not have as many axes after a bit. This would allow the enemy to force him to drop axes, and create points of being able to counter. Without his axes, he is a worse ad carry than any other, since his W is gone, and his E doesn't provide much otherwise.
Draven doesn't need his mana cost on his Q to be increased or the cool down. During laning phase you have to constantly juggle axes to cs, but even then it does make it extremely difficult to do already when you're trying to last hit and not push the lane. You're defiantly going to miss a few Q's or decide not to throw them because of risk of pushing lanes. The mana cost for your Q is actually pretty decent, any higher would actually make him even more mana hungry and for lanes that can sit in the back and farm, (Ex: Caitlyn) Draven can't harass them as much with his Q because not only he has to worry about farm but the enemy team can out harass him. Sometimes, using his Blood Rush to engage or keep poking them is necessary to just land a Q on them. Regardless, there are a lot of situations that can put Draven in danger, let's not nerf his Q mana costs or cool down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiseled Cactus View Post
Possible solution 2: Instead of extra gold on champion kills, include assists, or a completely different idea of more damage, or attack speed, or something. Creating this passive just forces him to do nothing for a bit, and ONLY if you get a kill does it actually mean something. If you don't get a kill early on, congratulations, you now have no passive. This is stupid, especially for such a popular champion. The bleed procs are good, and allow good chasing, panic, or just running away and feeling no viable escape. THAT'S THE IDEA.
Honestly, as a Draven main i'd like to try this out, I also need to check the numbers because the gold may not be worth it. I loved the bleed proc because sometimes there are those fights where I can barely make the kill, so my passive helps. However, by removing that you're removing a key principal of Draven, which is more damage. Honestly there are items that are good with Draven that help him with gold mid game, (Ex: Avarice Blade). Still, I'm not really too hyped up with the idea, but I'd like to try it on the PBE for a few hours and see what I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiseled Cactus View Post
Just in general, making his passive useless will ruin him as a champion. Yes, he has high damage, but the bleed is the entire idea of his kit. It follows with his brother darius, who has a very similar bleed mechanic that stacks, just in a different way. Is this not how it is supposed to work? I would love feedback over-all.
It's not the entire idea of his kit, it's a very nice addition to his kit, because he's Darius' brother. However, his passive won't be completely useless, this will just make Draven snowball just a little better when he's dominating his lane.


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Baval

Senior Member

06-14-2013

@basscannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by OT Shadow View Post
and what of his brother darius? remove his hemorage as well seeing as both draven and darius have bleeds darius would need changing as well otherwise they wont fit each others lores. this better not go through.
No, hes not upset about losing similarities, he says as ive quoted here a second time they wont fit each others lores if they dont both have bleeds. And on the first page someone even says "They need to both have bleeds so that they can be brothers"

Darius is not an executioner. He has an execute ultimate and he executed a commander, but these are lore bits to show his personality, not his job.

As for explaining Caitlyn: Riot seems to occasionally do things they shouldnt do, but as you said Cait doesnt scale as hard into the lategame as other carries. I cant justify her strong early game either really.

Twisted Fats passive, in a relatively average game, will give about 400 gold to each member of his team. Dravens passive will be much harder to trigger, so will likely have much greater rewards. Im not expecting him to get the full 2k gold over the course of a game TF gives his team, but i dont thingk 1600 is unreasonable.

I apologize for my last comment last night, as you say it was late and my instinct to make people lose focus by getting them frustrated kicked in.

Edit: Also, something i thought of last night. Even if Paladins were described as anti magic in some sources, its clearly not the case in League since Garen IS a spellcaster. He doesnt have the Damacian airforce flying constantly overhead ready to drop giant swords on peoples heads.


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Strangework

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Junior Member

06-14-2013

I do not want to discuss balance as much I do flavor;

Draven's new passive sounds like it would be a LOT of fun! My only complaint is that one of the two 'Blood Brothers' would not have a bleed. I always liked that touch of lore, it makes the character for me! Without a bleed, Draven would just seem too distanced from Darius.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

06-14-2013

Draven's draven draven is making him draven draven, and probably draaaaven.