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Nunu consume changes

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Sife

Junior Member

05-18-2013

I can understand the desire to make consume more relevant in the late game, but it seems like these changes shoehorn him into a role as jungler.

I like playing nunu as a jungler but I also enjoy playing support nunu and top nunu and have done just fine in those roles. heck, when bored I've even tried mid nunu.

I'm not saying its good for a champ to be good at everything, but this change seems to unnecessarily restrict nunu's diversity. Why not add a buff for consuming lane minions?

the real problem is that consume was useful in the early game outside of the jungle as it allowed nunu to have some sustain in the top lane and soak up some damage as a support. but as the amount healed has been reduced it seems like theres no point in taking it unless your jungling. I think the goal of putting more incentive on raking up consume has been missed by a long shot.

TLDR Nunu changes reduce his variability.


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MTempty

Senior Member

05-18-2013

yeah but now you can secure objectives with consume even if you fall behind. And if you get ahead, the enemy jungler can't even touch a dragon or baron.


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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05-18-2013

Two quick things!

You do realize that Nunu simply has to use consume on a jungle monster to get the buff - he does not have to kill it? That means Nunu in any lane can run to the jungle to consume something for a buff, and if he's feeling particularly generous he can even use it to help a teammate with a jungle creep (or leashing). So the consume buffs help in that regard. If you never go to the jungle as a lane Nunu, then you're literally ignoring the high objective control value of Consume, which is a problem in itself.

Second point, I wonder if you're misconstruing variability here for general lack of interaction. The thing about lane Nunu was that he has no real lane interaction in terms of 1v1 mechanics. You'd get snowballed to the face, and then he would heal back your harass with a consume. Sure he works in lane if your idea of working in lane is to come out of it equal or ahead of your opponent, but in terms of gameplay he was just a big rock that sat there.

I think live design in general is alright with pushing a champion to the jungle (see Udyr) if that champion's power levels and gameplay design flow better form the jungle. Old Udyr and old Nunu in lane used to just sustain without much interaction, while new Udyr and new Nunu work a lot better in the jungle and their power flow lends better to that. It's one thing to reduce variability if a champion is fun and interesting and interactive in a role (unless that "fun" factor is being super strong and crowding everyone out), but it's another to think that flat non-interaction is a form of viability.

But still, it's not like lane Nunu is completely dead, or do you think these changes really obliterate him?


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Guardman

Senior Member

05-18-2013

Quote:
Riot Pwyff:
Two quick things!

You do realize that Nunu simply has to use consume on a jungle monster to get the buff - he does not have to kill it? That means Nunu in any lane can run to the jungle to consume something for a buff, and if he's feeling particularly generous he can even use it to help a teammate with a jungle creep (or leashing). So the consume buffs help in that regard. If you never go to the jungle as a lane Nunu, then you're literally ignoring the high objective control value of Consume, which is a problem in itself.

Second point, I wonder if you're misconstruing variability here for general lack of interaction. The thing about lane Nunu was that he has no real lane interaction in terms of 1v1 mechanics. You'd get snowballed to the face, and then he would heal back your harass with a consume. Sure he works in lane if your idea of working in lane is to come out of it equal or ahead of your opponent, but in terms of gameplay he was just a big rock that sat there.

I think live design in general is alright with pushing a champion to the jungle (see Udyr) if that champion's power levels and gameplay design flow better form the jungle. Old Udyr and old Nunu in lane used to just sustain without much interaction, while new Udyr and new Nunu work a lot better in the jungle and their power flow lends better to that. It's one thing to reduce variability if a champion is fun and interesting and interactive in a role (unless that "fun" factor is being super strong and crowding everyone out), but it's another to think that flat non-interaction is a form of viability.

But still, it's not like lane Nunu is completely dead, or do you think these changes really obliterate him?


I have no problem with Riot pushing Nunu more towards the jungle, but...

After playing a couple of game with the new Consume on Nunu jungle a couple of things popped out at me.

1. The Golem and Lizard Consumes are nice and I can feel their power, but the wolves and wraiths consume feels kind of tacked on and never really feel like I use it other than to move a little faster between camps.

2. If my team is behind and I can't roam the jungle to get the consume buff I notice a drop in my power because of it. Basically if my team gets behind I get even more behind because I can't have my consume buffs.

3. Once team fights start it is hard to keep the buffs up because you usually have to leave your team to get one.

4. On the blue side especially it can be hard to keep up Golem buff up unless you rank Consume first due to the fact a lot of bot lanes like to clear double golems whenever they have the chance and don't really appreciate when you ask them not to do that and explain why as they feel entitled to golems. There is nothing I can really do about it other than camp double golems, which isn't ideal. And I sort of have a problem if a champion is less useful on blue team than purple.

5. Nunu has turned into a fun jungle control and invade jungler to a making sure you have all your consume buffs jungler, which isn't very fun. I feel like I am being punished if I don't have Lizard and Golem buff active.

tl;dr: While I like that you are trying to improve Consume I think you did it in the wrong direction and believe the consume buffs should be reworked or something so I don't feel like I am playing keep the buffs instead of playing the game.


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Adrielana

Senior Member

05-18-2013

Quote:
Reifke Vlasir:
I have no problem with Riot pushing Nunu more towards the jungle, but...

After playing a couple of game with the new Consume on Nunu jungle a couple of things popped out at me.

1. The Golem and Lizard Consumes are nice and I can feel their power, but the wolves and wraiths consume feels kind of tacked on and never really feel like I use it other than to move a little faster between camps.

2. If my team is behind and I can't roam the jungle to get the consume buff I notice a drop in my power because of it. Basically if my team gets behind I get even more behind because I can't have my consume buffs.

3. Once team fights start it is hard to keep the buffs up because you usually have to leave your team to get one.

4. On the blue side especially it can be hard to keep up Golem buff up unless you rank Consume first due to the fact a lot of bot lanes like to clear double golems whenever they have the chance and don't really appreciate when you ask them not to do that and explain why as they feel entitled to golems. There is nothing I can really do about it other than camp double golems, which isn't ideal.

5. Nunu has turned into a fun jungle control and invade jungler to a making sure you have all your consume buffs jungler, which isn't very fun. I feel like I am being punished if I don't have Lizard and Golem buff active.

tl;dr: While I like that you are trying to improve Consume I think you did it in the wrong direction and believe the consume buffs should be reworked or something so I don't feel like I am playing keep the buffs instead of playing the game.


What OP is saying, take away consume buffs.
He doesn't like nice things.


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Guardman

Senior Member

05-18-2013

Quote:
Adrielana:
What OP is saying, take away consume buffs.
He doesn't like nice things.


What I am saying is change it so I am playing Nunu not keep the buffs up. When i have to drastically alter my play style just to keep up with a timer it isn't exactly a fun or positive change. When I am more punished on blue side than purple side then it isn't a fun or positive change.

What I am saying is this is a nice start, but this current incarnation has a lot of problems with it.


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NYKnicks1and7

Senior Member

05-18-2013

I think you guys should make a buff for baron and dragon but only if he kills it


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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05-18-2013

I wonder if you're overvaluing the power of those jungle buffs. Sure you'll feel slightly weaker for not having them, but by no means are they necessary for Nunu's overall power. He used to be a strong invade jungler, and we buffed that with Consume dealing more damage. Jungle Nunu doesn't run low on HP past his first back - even with the new Consume - and the new jungle consume buffs are just icing on the cake.

Quite literally we buffed jungle Nunu even without the consume buffs and you're saying that he feels weaker when his buffs are off - sure, but in comparison to old Nunu, that's simply not true!

10% HP, 1% of HP dealt as damage, and a 15% movement speed buff for 3s on minion kill does not differentiate between mega strong Nunu and weak Nunu. They make a difference, certainly, but at max level Consume they're up for 4 minutes!


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Silverkillz

Senior Member

05-18-2013

Eve ult changed to current % from max% also changed her variety. Now she has to use it to open with, otherwise it does 0 damage. Since when does the assassin initiate?


And the consume changes were needed. For one, he was healing way too much off of it top lane AND jungle. And it was useless in fights. Now atleast he could eat something to gain a buff to help in the fight, not be down an ability.


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Guardman

Senior Member

05-18-2013

Quote:
Riot Pwyff:
I wonder if you're overvaluing the power of those jungle buffs. Sure you'll feel slightly weaker for not having them, but by no means are they necessary for Nunu's overall power. He used to be a strong invade jungler, and we buffed that with Consume dealing more damage. Jungle Nunu doesn't run low on HP past his first back - even with the new Consume - and the new jungle consume buffs are just icing on the cake.

Quite literally we buffed jungle Nunu even without the consume buffs and you're saying that he feels weaker when his buffs are off - sure, but in comparison to old Nunu, that's simply not true!

10% HP, 1% of HP dealt as damage, and a 15% movement speed buff for 3s on minion kill does not differentiate between mega strong Nunu and weak Nunu. They make a difference, certainly, but at max level Consume they're up for 4 minutes!


As Nunu by the beginning of the end game I have 3000+ HP, so that's:

10% HP can be an extra 300+ HP on average, which is a lot.

1% of HP as damage is 30+ extra damage, which is a lot.

Both of these are a huge boost in power. I am getting probably around 2000 free stats worth of gold. But even with the four minute timer it can be hard to keep them up for the following reasons:

1. Trapped in base.
2. Other people clearing camps.
3. Having to stay with team and not going past relevant camps.

While I might not be weaker then old Nunu, I feel weaker without them. That's the problem I can be more powerful but I get punished for not having them, not rewarded for having them. It might seem like a small difference, but psychologically it is a big one.

In addition I feel like I am having to micromanage my own jungle more to make sure I can keep my buffs up. This isn't fun, and this isn't why I liked Nunu Jungle. But if I don't do this then I feel like I am not playing Nunu optimally.

Edit: Did some very quick math with rough values, but at 3000 HP for just the Lizard and Golem buffs you get the following gold value.

300 HP - 800 gold
30 AA Damage - 1000 gold
30 Ability Damage - 600 gold

Total - 2400 gold

This is a lot of free stats for one ability, and the difference between having 2400 in free stats and not having 2400 in free stats is a lot. Even if you want to devalue the Ability Damage by half since it doesn't effect your heal it's still 2100 free gold of stats.


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