Why do we get the threads from Riot asking what is wrong with a champion?

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Knicknevin

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Still waiting with bated breath to find out how Poppy is going to be handled. On one hand, looking forward to new model/art/voice work. It would be nice if she had an actual laning phase, as opposed to a 'sit at tower watching Jayce farm' phase. But at the same time, as soon as she actually GETS items, she tends to run over games like a freight train.


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ˆMakotoˆ

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Hey there Xypherous, Phreak, Xelnath I have an old thread here, that was on the topic of Viktor, and ways to make him feel more like he was an "evolutionary" champion that didn't, in my opinion, go to far as to make it hard to balance like in AD/AP class cases (Tristana / Ezreal)

I had gotten a response from Ziegler and he said that both him and statikk were looking at all the info I had supplied to them. After a year or so, I never heard back from Ziegler. Mind giving me some input on what I've got listed there? I'd truly appreciate it a lot.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?t=1882093&


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Misheeal

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
That's massively overpowered. Well done.
I'm imagining a team with 4 Dravens and loling.


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Nirosu

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
No way! That's not unbalanced enough.

Now if you evolve Kha'zix W, it can strike allies and give them a temporary GA upon death.

However... they respawn as Draven until they die.
no no they respawn as Karthus until they die.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You could easily argue that these things are necessary for a more viable character - however, it basically just flattens characters - every character is now a moderatly tanky, 700/800 range, poke-sustain caster with moderate harass and survives ganks. We saw this near the tail end of Season 2, where it looked like every mid caster had the exact same profile - high wave clearing, gank-proof, mid/long range harass mages with moderate burst potential. I'm not disagreeing that it works - and obviously competitive balance isn't my thing.
This is precisely why I was so disappointed that at least half of the power of viktor's augments came from his base stats. The death augment was as much for the extra ap you got as for the burn passive on his death ray. Same goes for the 10% cdr and mana regen on the gravity augment: it was equally important as being able to cast w from a longer range. I thought it flattened the character and didn't provide enough room for differentiation. Any chance we could remove these passives and further uniquify the passives?


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
What if Alpha Strike had lower base values but somehow scaled off DPS - Can Master Yi penta-kill your team through a combination of AA's and Alpha's? Isn't that what he's supposed to do?

One of the worst things about playing ap yi is that the bulk of his damage comes from alpha strike, an essentially uncounterable ability. Please don't bring that playstyle over to ad yi.

However, I do agree with the overall thought process of having abilities deal more damage for melee ad carries. One of the strangest things about fiora is that her lunge deals next to no damage, making it almost exclusively a gap closer.


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Hazanshu

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post


I don't really like talking about Karma - I kind of prefer leaving that to Scarizard. I will say that we completely screwed up her release balance to an extreme extent and it really sucks that we did because we just didn't deliver the day one expectations. I feel like the kit has a much better flow to it - but I still wish we kept two mantra charges.

Trundle was a lot easier than Karma, because Trundle already worked - for the most part. It was just getting people to realize that it worked through some visibility changes. Sejuani was overpowered before the remake - and the remake has done nothing but make that even more obvious - so that was also slightly easier.

Okay okay... I need to eat foods and then possibly pass out. Sorry guys - Not going to be responding any more to this thread - Night all.
I bolded what was really critical. With the rework you guys attempted to make her single mantra more ultimate-ish but they aren't really that strong because its not acting like 2 skills tied to one, it seems like mantra is merely a door that allows QWE ultimate come through thus not feeling as strong. Even if it were then it would be obscenely strong/difficult to balance. Therefore I feel 2 mantras will really solve her problems along with the removal of her passive and number changes. The reason why I feel 2 mantras are good vs 1 because -

Having One is really bad -
Punishes Karma players for choosing early or whatever.
Reduces Flexibility in her Kit
Prevents her from using other mantras at a given moment

Having two
Allowed Flexibility
Splitting her ultimate into 'two halves' allows her to contribute to the fight more across it then rather in the beginning and at the end.

Simply having one gates her and locks her out from other options and all other singular choices with slight consideration to her E feels bad.

Her Q2 AOE detonation needs to be reduced to 1.0 second from 1.5 currently it is the longest delay ability, outpassing Veigar's and Cho Gath's delays.

Her W isn't that good ...should be able to target the ally to heal them and yourself over time (Half of the damage is a HoT for yourself and ally) Increase the CDR at early levels and change her mantra and bam much better stil retains a heal.

E - is fine if other changes make it through..

I feel like changing the properties of how skills work with mantra should be considered. Example Q passes through minions and travels at an accelerated rate similar to Jayce..


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Do you feel like work on BotRk is done at the moment? I still don't like buying it because of your assertion that even in cases of health stacking, the non-counter case should be as viable as the counter build case. Most of the time I regret holding myself to this rule, since bortk is almost ubitquitously good: great build path, and the active helps burn down even squishy targets.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

It does create enormous high moments though - but they've generally come at considerable cost (Darius / Katarina) for example. I'm not sure if we've done the mechanic entirely correctly - there's facets that are good and bad.
What do you mean by you don't think you've done the mechanic correctly? Do you think there might be a better way to do it?


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Judgeshowtunes

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
My statement was that temporary defensive bonuses basically equate to permanent defensive bonuses for the most part - as having the defense for most of the team fight, is, in general, as good as having it up all the time - regardless of how you get it.

You can throw a bunch of hoops or gates to lock those bonuses away from players until they do some specific action to add skill to obtaining that defense - but in general, the final thing you've created when it "works" is a tanky dude with a lot of autoattack damage.

So much depends on the actual defense ability in general though - because if it's risky, the character is binary if he misses and if it's not risky, you've just got another gap closing, tanky, autoattack man on you. I think it could be a cool character - I'm just not sure you can solve the current melee ADCs with that paradigm.

A character based around AA-steroids, dodges, gap closers and melee enhancers with a super hard hitting autoattack?

What if you gave them 4 gap closers?

I made that character and it's still a fighter, at the end of the day.
You also gave her multiple CC effects (knockup and stun) as well as a huge, execute-style ult. I don't recall mentioning either of those things (in fact, the ult contradicts my plan of not using QWER to directly kill someone).

Riven's kit would be awesome for a melee ADC if some things were tweaked. MADC probably don't need CC, not if they're planning to do what we're talking about (i.e. Right click + actions to keep you right-clicking). Or at least take one of them away. The ult isn't part of this either, maybe something more like Aatrox's new ult, where it does some damage + gives cool AA bonuses.

But her mobility on Q and E are awesome and exactly what I'm thinking of. Neat little dash effects to either catch up or avoid abilities. Those kinds of things are exactly what a MADC needs, and I think you could make a right-clicker with those kinds of abilities that still required skill. But if you give them multiple CC and an easy click-to-kill button, it's going to be a fighter. No doubt.